Why Max Harris joined Labour | In Brief

[00:00:00]Cyoto, welcome to public interest. My name is Oise. This week, the Labour Party released its candidate list for the 2026 election. And one of the most notable new names to appear on that list is lawyer and activist Max Harris. Since the publication of his book, The New Zealand Project, in 2017, Max has been one of the most prominent voices on New Zealand's progressive left. Whether it's through his writing, his activism, or his legal work, he has pushed consistently for what I would describe as a more democratic and egalitarian politics and economy. And now he's standing for the Labour Party, and he's contesting the electorate of Tamaki, a seat that Labour hasn't won since 1957.

[00:00:41]Joining me to discuss why he's entering electoral [music] politics, what he hopes to achieve, and how he plans to turn what might seem to be one of Labour's longest shots [music] into a competitive race is Max Harris himself.

[00:00:53]Cod Max, welcome to the show.

[00:00:55]>> C Ali, great to be on public interest.

[00:00:57]>> Now Max, you've you've come in at 29th on the list and based on current polling, that could well see you entering Parliament later this year. How do you feel about that?

[00:01:06]>> I'm really excited. Uh it was a lovely surprise and uh it's been um a great week um being down in Wellington for the list announcement. Uh and I think it's picked up interest in the race in Tamaki. Uh so yeah, a little a little nervous um if I'm honest, but uh really excited uh and yeah, looking forward to the months ahead. Now, Max, as I said in my introduction, you're you're well known um for being a voice for bold and transformational change. You know, whether that's campaigning for free uh universal dental or you're campaigning around public housing or being a staunch defender on of tidity is the foundation for our constitution. Given that record, I imagine that there'll be people listening to this show um who will be surprised that you've decided to run for parliament for the Labour Party. Why is it that um you're with Labor?

[00:02:01]>> Yeah, that's a great question. Uh and I think it's good as we come into this election year uh seeing this profoundly damaging government for people to ask how can I be further involved um in making this a one-term government and uh what party should I be involved with um if people are thinking about that commitment? And for me, uh, it's, uh, clear to me that the Labour Party, uh, is the most, um, powerful rooted voice for progressive change. Um, and there are three reasons, um, why I'm in the Labour Party. Um, first of all, Labour's roots really matter to me. Where labor came from, uh, labor being connected to the labor movement, uh, and workers. Uh, the legacy and history of Michael Joseph Savage and the first Labor government establishing the welfare state and our public healthare system. Um, those roots uh, still run through the party today.

[00:02:58]They're an inspiration for further action. Uh, and, uh, they're one reason why I'm in the party. The second reason is to do with uh the party's reach and base in communities. So the party today still has a strong base in workingclass MI and Pacifica communities. And you see that if you go to a local party meeting, you see that if you go to Labor events.

[00:03:22]Um the party truly reflects and is representative of the community. uh and that matters because uh the knowledge and the insights that are coming through the party are really coming through all the parts of our community. Um and I truly also believe that that base is what is going to drive change within the party and within our country. So that's the second reason I'm in Labor to do with the base and and the reach of the party into communities and and you know that that base has been kind of renewed and reconnected as well through Labour's history whether that's um through establishing the the Orta and Aenddale markets up here in Oakland whether that's through um the historical connections to Vata or others. The third reason is to do with um Labour's power as um a major party and as a party that has significantly shifted New Zealand um through history. So I've already mentioned Michael Joseph Savage. Um we also know that um Labour um initiated uh the period of of Rogeromics in the 80s.

[00:04:23]Uh I think uh that uh Labour is now reckoning with that history. uh and I think that uh we are the party that uh has the power to shift the political e economy of the country um in a much more positive direction. Uh and if you look at um Labor parties in recent years um in the UK and in New Zealand um we see that um it's Labor parties that have shifted that national trajectory. as a Labour member said to me recently um in the best of the Labour Party's history, Labour values have become New Zealand values and including for example around New Zealand being nuclear free. So I've been involved with the party um for a long time. Um I joined the party at university. Um in the 2010s I was on a a policy committee. Um I rejoined the party in recent years. Um it's always been um the party for me. Um and yeah, for th for those reasons, for the Labour Party's power, for its base and reach into communities and for its roots, um I think there's a really strong case for people getting involved in labor as I have done. I'm glad you brought up, you know, Roenomics, Max, because for many people, um they might of course acknowledge the contribution that the first Labor government made to building our social democracy. But then alongside that, we have the dismantling of that under a Labor government um in the 80s.

[00:05:43]And now you said that the party has worked through that. What makes you say that?

[00:05:47]>> Yeah, I think I said that the party's reckoning with that. Like I I think that um the last uh Labor le government uh acknowledged the damage that was done um under under the fourth Labor government and did significant work to repair um parts of the social fabric that have been torn apart since the 80s and '90s.

[00:06:10]I mean, by the way, and as the juggernaut podcast well pointed out, I think um the national government in the '90s um did a huge amount to deepen uh the damage of those um economic and political changes. Um but I think a process began of undoing that um under the last Labour led government. So, for example, with the um increases in benefit levels in 2021, I was involved with a campaigner at Action Station working with a team of people um trying to change that um trying to to reestablish the role of of unions. Um and I think the Labour Party is um continuing to um to move in that direction um to think about um how we can come out of that period in our history um and uh and work towards um a more progressive um future. Now, Max, you've been involved with a lot of different approaches to political change. You've been, you've worked with Action Station, as you mentioned just now, campaigning around a number of issues. You've, you know, you work through the courts on public interest litigation of various kinds. So, why parliament? Why spend your time now um trying to make the move to become an elected politician?

[00:07:17]>> Yeah, that's a good question, too. Um I think campaigns and social movements play a critical role in um setting an agenda in putting pressure on politicians um driving politicians uh and and critically um in a in a way that reflects um a public mood for change and not just a smaller group of people paying for access to politicians.

[00:07:41]So, um I will always be someone that um supports the work of campaigns and social movements and believes that we are a stronger society um as we continue to strengthen those social movements and campaigns. Um I had um a great time working at Action Station um on campaigns on the welfare system, on uh disability support, uh on dental. Uh ultimately I think that parliamentary politics in this country um has great power um in driving forward lasting legislative change. Uh I think politicians are often in a dance with those social movements where uh those social movements press politicians and politicians can also support and amplify those social movements and campaigns. So I don't think politicians are the only important ones in the picture. Um, but I think the the power to pass uh legislation, um the power to uh lead conversations, um uh the power uh to amend legislation, um to work with social movements and groups. I think all of those things um are are things I want to be involved with. Uh and um I think we have um some massive challenges um that uh arise from this government um and also from recent decades. I mean we've seen this government try to shift the national rhetoric for example on tidity or wangi.

[00:09:05]So through the treaty principles bill uh trying to rewrite tidity or wangi and through now the treaty clause review trying to downgrade the status of tidity or wangi though it's our founding constitutional document. Um I think it's so important that we have politicians and political leaders um uh who are strong uh on tidity for example as our founding document and I do think we know that the public um from polling from the human rights commission overwhelmingly supports honoring tatidity and understanding our history. Um but politicians play an important role in in that conversation and being stewards and leaders of that conversation. So, um I'm keen on those kinds of issues um to do my part um on a whole range of other issues where I want to be a strong team player. Um I want to look at um how we can draw on Labour's roots um to um continue to work towards um yeah being a a progressive inclusive country. And and just to build on my last answer and to say a little bit more about that, um I think one area where uh labor policy has been really positive so far has been in um reclaiming universalism as a as a value. And I think one thing that um came through in the 80s and '90s under Roenomics and Ruth Asia was a turn towards means testing and this much more narrow social state and that's created great injustices um for people um who have to uh go up through a W's office um or another social service and essentially prove that they're poor and show that we are in need of support. and it creates injustice for people that that fall on one side of a an arbitrarily drawn line or the other. Um, it's also costly and expensive. And what we've seen in labor policy, for example, on three free GP visits, which is universal, or uh the $20 public transport cap weekly in Oakland, Wellington, Christ Church, and the $10 cap outside those main centers, um, is a return to that universalism. Um, and I think that is a really important step in our politics. Uh, and it's something that I want to support and contribute to. So Max, it's possible you could make it to parliament off the list, but you are running in an electorate. You're running in Tamaki, and I'm keen to talk a bit about that. Now, the seat is currently held by Axe Brookke Vanddon, although she's not contesting this election. Last election, National won over 50% of the party vote there. Labour hasn't won Taki since 1957, back when Walter Nash was elected as prime minister. Do you really think you can win? Yeah, I'm I'm glad we're um talking about Tamaki uh because I've had in the last few days um a bunch of friends trying to crunch numbers on um what different results might mean for different numbers on the Labor list and um uh yeah, I don't I don't think um uh I treat the list as as anything like a guarantee of being in parliament. And I'm really excited about the Tamaki campaign and it's another reason why um you know we have to go hard on that campaign. So I think the race is really wide open in Tamaki. Brooke Van Valdon has resigned following a huge backlash in particular to her moves on dismantling pay equity. Um where you know 180,000 working people had claims canled essentially overnight mostly women. Um and you know that's a system where sectors entire sectors were undervalued because um they were predominantly represented by women. And this was an important attempt to correct that historical undervaluation. Um, and all of that was thrown to the wayside.

[00:12:37]And following that, Brookke van Beldon has stepped away. We've now got three candidates. Tamaki is going to have a new MP and I hear and Tamaki people listening really closely to uh the candidates and thinking about their options. Uh, I think that um there is a strong base of progressive and labor support in Tamaki. We've set up an office in Glen Inis um and I've had heaps of people come by the office talking about how um they are longtime labor supporters. We've also been doornocking um every week for a considerable number of weeks now and I've um door knocked on some of the most staunchly labor houses I've ever seen as well. We've got 2,000 votes from Point England that have moved into the electorate from what was the Panu Otahu electorate. Um those are strong um progressive votes. uh we have um a campaign where we've managed to fund raise and bring some resources in. Um so we're really serious about this race and I I can say more about our strategy but the plan is really to build up in that base um to demonstrate that we're serious about that race and then to build out across the electorate and I've also been you know in meetings uh and um doing other events right across the electorate. It covers a lot of ground including Mission Bay, Kohim Matama, St. Helia, Stonefields, Glendowi and other suburbs as well as Glenn and Point England. So it's exciting.

[00:13:59]>> Now Max, Labour's been criticized for being relatively light on policy so far this election campaign. Is that posing difficulties for you on the doorstep?

[00:14:07]>> Uh it's a criticism that the National Party has has made and um in part I think it's to distract from a budget that was like highly lackluster and underwhelming. I actually haven't talked to anyone who can remember anything in that budget except for the pain that it's caused. for example, lifting state housing rents. But to answer your question, um I honestly haven't heard on any doors that I've been on um people making that point about policy. I I can I I'm I'm being completely frank with you. I I I have heard other people in the community mention that and I think um as it's something that the media has commented on more um yeah, that's something that that has been raised. I think a lot of people including on the doors are not aware of um the policies that Labour has put out already. So for example um free free GP visits, free survical cancer screening, a capital gains tax and I think it's really important that uh we keep explaining those policies. Just yesterday, uh, Labour announced a really exciting new policy on, um, capping the cost of public transport and keeping the cost of public transport under $20 a week in Oakland, Wellington, and Christ Church, under $10 a week, um, outside of those main centers. Um, and I was at a meeting this morning in Glennness. Um, not a natural um, Labor Party um, space, I would say, and people were talking all about it um, as I was getting into the room. Um so uh I think um that will cause more discussion and um and and has been I think widely supported and there's going to be more policy coming out. Um I mean I think the the Mamani campaign in New York um which really excited me uh showed that it's important to have strong policy and it's important to be disciplined and um and to have really clear messaging. Uh and so I think uh having uh memorable policy uh and policies that um people can explain to others um is is important and I'm I'm looking forward to to the other policies that I know will be coming out in in the months ahead.

[00:16:08]>> We live in an age of you know datadriven campaigning of microargeting of you know online advertising all that kind of stuff. But from looking at your social media for your campaign I'm seeing a lot of people out there knocking doors. Are you um deliberately trying to do things differently here or is that just a um the promo I'm getting from from Instagram?

[00:16:30]>> Um there's some some great uh clips on Instagram and I've got a shout out um um yeah, two amazing young um people who are um leading on doing uh social media for the campaign. But yeah, I I I want to speak about um the importance of doornocking. Uh in a way, it's nothing new. that's been central to the Labour Party and um anyone committed to grassroots campaigning. But we are um really focused on it and that's for a few reasons. Um first of all, we know it's a really effective way of um securing support for a candidate and for a party. And we know from evidence that um when a candidate knocks on doors, it's even more effective still. Um, so people like seeing a real person on the doors, listening to them, hearing their concerns, and then sometimes um getting into a conversation about why a party is worth voting for. That's the first reason. But there are other reasons as well. Um, I've really seen on the doors and in uh community interactions how this government's decisions are impacting people. And I was aware of that, but you see this brought home really vividly on the doors. So, for example, a door knockocking team came back and reported um one person affected by the fuel crisis traveling to South Oakland every day um who hadn't received a top up of any kind from employer her their employer or the government uh and was really struggling and was feeling the pinch. And you know that kind of story really drives home what impact the fuel crisis is having just as an example. So, that's the second point.

[00:18:04]The third point is that you sometimes hear on the doors uh language um words or ideas that are better than any politician could um come up with. Um I heard someone talk about the need for the Labour Party to take the bull by the horns and to pass a capital gains tax. I think from someone that wasn't aware that Labour had a capital gains tax policy, a modest, sensible capital gains tax policy that more New Zealanders on existing polling support than oppose.

[00:18:33]And that phrase taking the bull by the horns is one that I've used again because I think it's a great way of summing up um taking on that challenge and not being a property dependent economy. Um I also personally really enjoy it. I get a lot of energy from meeting people. I think sometimes people are surprised to see politicians on the doors. Um I think it requires a little bit of emotional intelligence. Um although a whole range of people um are getting training and and feeling able to do it. um you know, you sometimes have to react to unexpected questions or um people um saying something slightly unexpected. Um but you often also get a huge amount of warmth. Um we've had people um come and volunteer for the campaign through door knocks and we've also had that through our campaign office, people just rocking up. Um so it's a way you build and expand that volunteer base. So, I could go on about it, but those are three or four reasons why it's really important. And and I should add that we've had really great um turnout on in in our volunteers. A lot of young people, um a lot of of people um excited by the campaign. Um every Saturday we go doornocking. Um uh yeah, Saturday morning or Saturday afternoon. Um we train people up. Um we do a little roleplay, which I also enjoy as someone that used to be into um theater or drama. Um we make people feel comfortable. um we um arm people up with support um and people come back buzzing uh and they come back again and again.

[00:19:57]>> So your former theater kid, Max, what was your your biggest role on the stage?

[00:20:02]>> That's a great question. Um I went to Wellington College. Um I was in uh Love's Labors Lost uh as uh Costad uh and uh this an important uh role as with lots of Shakespeare players of someone who's a sort of um interesting individual who's who's sort of speaking unexpected truths into the community.

[00:20:28]Um, but I was also in uh the the Dumb Waiter, which is a Harold Pinter show about um two um hitmen actually who are waiting for uh someone to arrive and there's a there's a twist at the end of the play around uh who uh arrives. Uh it's a twoperson play. Uh I love Harold Pinter. So a few other um plays as well.

[00:20:52]Um actually at the end of school I um I did I did improv as well and a bunch of people uh who were in this improv show made a decision about whether to go into a TV show and uh or whether to do exams and um a few people decided to go into that um TV show and I got offered a part and to my regret in some ways decided to um focus on my exams and every now and then I I wonder whether I would have gone down a different path if I'd um been on this TV show and on the right path.

[00:21:23]>> Um, Seven Periods with Mr. Gormsby New Zealand TV show that was um in the uh in the mid200s.

[00:21:31]>> Yeah, the Helen Clark era.

[00:21:33]>> That's right. That's right.

[00:21:36]>> What could have been, Max? What could have been? Well, um well, stepping back from Tamaki specifically, um what do you think this year's general election is is fundamentally about or what's at stake this election? There's a huge amount at stake. Um, I mean, if I were just to focus on what I'm hearing, I'm mostly hearing about people really concerned about life being more expensive and incomes or income support not keeping up with that. So, the cost of living and I think that also relates to the economy and a government that's, as Barbara Evans has said, like lost control of that economy and a feeling that um, the government is not doing anything on the cost of living. I think they will continue to be an issue as the fuel crisis affects people, as food and petrol prices and rents say stay stubbornly high. Um but beyond that um it's also yeah choice about the kind of future we want. Um and yeah, we have a government that's um trying to uh sell things off. They've talked openly about selling off part of Kiwi Bank. They've outsourced uh put out to private providers parts of our public health care system. They've floated selling off other state-owned assets. And I think um there is a real question here about public ownership as opposed to privatization. What we keep in our public hands and Labour's made its position very clear on keeping things um public. And I think it's really important actually because it's connected to having a government that works for everyone. If we sell things off as a government and tie the government's hands as this government has done through the regulatory standards act, is it any wonder that then people turn around and say, "Oh, what's the government delivering for us?" Um, as the government gets smaller and smaller as it sells things off, as it ties its own hands, it's going to um be harder for us for us to get the government to to act in the interests of all of us. Um, so it's going to be an election about privatization, I think.

[00:23:38]uh and public ownership. It's also going to be an election about tutility and honoring our history. Uh I did a lot of work campaigning on the treaty principles bill and have done work as a lawyer in that capacity too. And I went round and was really heartened by uh Park for example at U3A meetings in Wellington um or in meetings in Faradare around the country that actually wanted to stick to our founding promise of tutility. Um, and I think this is a chance for people to decide, um, are we going to continue to go down this path of a government that wants to turn its back on our history, to forget our traditions, to forget who we are, or is it a chance for a more hopeful, honorable future where we honor that founding document and there are a whole lot of other fundamentals that are at stake this election. So just recently, this government said, "Oh, it might be helpful to have a conversation about whether New Zealand should continue to be nuclear free." and the Labour Party came out staunchly and said, "Of course, we're going to stick to being nuclear free." And we've seen a government turn towards the US internationally. I think we're seeing a slow sleepwalking of and sometimes very active steps being taken by this government towards a country that uh is so different from the values that make us proud. Um, so it's a an election very fundamentally, very materially about the cost of living, about putting money into people's back pockets, which is what Labor is offering, um, versus a government that's making life harder. But it's also an election about values, about public ownership versus privatization, about honoring tutility versus trashing our founding document versus remaining nuclear free and and being independent of the world versus um turning um more closely towards um the US and Israel and losing our independence and foreign policy. So, it's an incredibly important election. This government wants to do some things that are going to be difficult to reverse and we can't have another 3 years of it. So, we need to enroll people to vote, something we're focusing on. um we need young people um out voting um and we [music] need all to be voting and and speaking up and engaging politically in different ways um to to build a progressive government.

[00:25:46]>> Thanks Max. That's all we've [music] got time for today, but thanks for coming on the show.

[00:25:50]>> Thanks so much. Um and really enjoy what you're doing um Ollie with Undercurrents and with Public Interest and um encourage people to keep listening. You hid it here.