In criminal trials, witnesses must provide accurate and complete information, as false or misleading testimony can lead to wrongful convictions. The Senzo Meyiwa murder trial demonstrates how witnesses' accounts of their whereabouts and relationships during the time of the alleged crime are crucial for establishing innocence or guilt. Witnesses who were incarcerated at the time of the alleged crime can provide alibis that exonerate suspects, while witnesses who provide false information about relationships or events can contribute to miscarriages of justice. The court must carefully evaluate witness credibility, including whether statements were read back to witnesses and whether they understood the information they were providing.
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Senzo Meyiwa Murder Trial | 12 June 2026
Added:You can show the witness.
>> Yes. Show the witness.
>> Okay.
The names are Yeah.
>> Thank you, madam. May I proceed?
>> Yes.
Mr. Yeah.
>> Morning sir.
>> Morning Mr. Jonas.
>> Morning sir.
>> Now Mr. Lei we are here in court. We've asked you to come and testify.
Few grand rules. Uh firstly I'm going to ask you to speak aloud so that everyone here in court can hear your testimony.
If you cannot understand the question, ask for it to be clarified or to be repeated.
And when you testify, keep it uh short and brief so that uh the interpreter can always have an opportunity to interpret your evidence.
And lastly, don't be fearful. This is a court of law. Speak your truth truthfully.
Are we understood sir?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Now where were you born sir?
Are you known by by any other nickname or a name that they use in the streets?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And do you have any siblings, brothers, sisters?
>> Yes.
>> And in particular, do you know a person called Marcoi?
Yes, he's my brother.
>> What are his full names?
>> And when he says your brother, is he a black brother or a relative?
He's my uh uncle's child. Other words, my brother's my father's brother's child.
>> And is Marcoi still alive?
>> No, he's deceased.
>> Do you recall when he passed on?
>> 19 July 2019.
>> 19 July 2019.
Okay, thank you. And do you know a person by the name of brother?
>> Yes, he is my elder brother.
>> And also explain when he says your brother, is he a relative or is he a blood brother?
>> He's also my my uncle's child. And with respect to both Marco and did you all three grow up in the same household?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
And now Marco passed on in 201 19 and then is he still alive?
2019.
>> He's also since deceased.
>> And when did he pass on?
>> 2023.
>> If I'm not mistaken, 2023, >> but you're not exactly sure about the precise date.
>> Yeah, I was concerned.
>> That's correct.
>> You only know the year in which he passed on.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Now explain to us the nature of the relationship between you firstly and how close were you?
We were very close because he was my brother and we grew up together at home >> and also explain the nature of the relationship between yourself and how close were you? What was the nature of the relationship between you and him?
We're also very close because we grew up together and we were also staying together at home.
>> Now let us go a bit back to the year 2013 around March. Do you recall where where were you around March 2020 2013?
13.
>> Yes.
>> 2013.
>> Uh in March of 2013 I was back home.
>> And do you recall in March 2013 whether or not there came a time when you were arrested?
So, sorry. Uh, were you ever arrested in 2013? Maybe I'm wrong with respect to the to the month.
When were you arrested?
>> August 23, 2013.
>> 23rd of August, 2013.
>> When were you arrested?
>> Was somebody else arrested with you?
>> Yes.
>> Who were you arrested with?
>> With Marco.
And you say you were arrested in Boni 23 August 2013. Were you taken to court in respect of that arrest?
May 26 it was 23 24 25 26 >> yes I was taken to court or we went to court on the 26th was arrested on the 23rd 24th 25th and then we went to court on the 26th in court at Beni were you granted bail >> what happened after a court appearance We were taken.
>> Okay. We were taken by the police, the niu police here in uh transferred or taken to KZNA because we had met us that site or cases that site >> and in were you admitted to a particular detention facility?
Uh we went to court on the 27th and then from then were then taken to fry hate.
>> Is that the name of the prison?
>> Okay.
>> Yes.
>> And how long did you stay in that prison for?
Sorry. is him or the two both of them.
>> Okay.
2013 2016 May 18th October 2016 >> 18 October from uh we were there that is now from 2013 up until the 18th of October 2016.
>> Okay. So and am I correct that it was both you and Marco that were detained at that prison that you've just mentioned now?
Yeah, >> that's correct. Just the two of us.
>> Now, in the context of this case, uh, this case deals with the Senzu Maya murder on the 26th of October 2014.
Would I be correct that at the time of the commission of this murder, both you and Marco were incarcerated in 26th October 2014.
26th October 2014.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. Let's pause it there. We'll take it up again. I want to talk now about Do you know whether or not was at at some stage also arrested and incarcerated?
Yes. Upon my arrest as well as Marco's arrest, uh he was in we left him in prison in Boxback. He was arrested in Boxback.
>> And was he ever released from the Boxback prison?
according to your knowledge.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And when he left prison, was he transferred to a particular prison or was he a free person?
He was a free person.
>> Okay. And after that was he subsequently also arrested somewhere incarcerated.
>> 2018.
>> Yes. He was arrested in 2018.
>> And was he held in prison in case?
>> Yes.
the same prison.
>> And would it be the same prison where you and Marco were also incarcerated?
>> Yes.
>> And do you know when was released? Was he ever released from that prison?
He was never granted bail. Uh and then he was convicted and then he was taken to a smaller jail in in prison in >> Do you know the name of that smaller prison where he was taken to?
>> Yeah.
Okay.
years.
>> Yeah, it's just written prison and he was sentenced to 5 years.
>> Okay. Do you know whether or not he completed the fiveear sentence in full he did not complete the sentence. He got sick whilst he was still inside in prison.
>> And what happened when he got sick whilst he was in prison?
particular Janu was taken to the prison in Nor in order for him to be able to get doctors to attend to him. Now he's transferred to Nome for medical attention, meaning that he was detained in the medical section of that prison. Would I be correct?
Yes, he was there and he did not get any medical attention and then he was taken outside. In other words, he was then taken outside to Madi in Newcastle.
And what happened at at Newcastle? Was he eventually released? Did he get better and and sent back to prison or what happened?
No, he did not get better because the jail eventually released him on medical parole before the completion of his sentence.
>> And do you have an idea of the year when was released on medical parole?
I'm not certain about the year as to which year it was.
>> Would it be before 2020? The year 2020.
>> 2019 2019 love >> around 2019 there maybe towards the end.
>> And do you have personal knowledge as to his his his medical condition upon release from hospital on medical parole.
Medical it is an unfair question for this witness. He was incarcerated. Simp was also incarcerated. How can he have personal knowledge while he was incarcerated in a different facility?
Okay.
>> As as the court precis he he he has jumped the gun. We we are yet to establish uh further interaction between the witness and and Mr. Sue upon release. If if that's not established my lord then fair to him he will revisit that that that that hear >> that objection my lord now I said to you personally do you know the medical condition of Mr. upon his release on medical parole.
Uh it never improved. Uh he just remained a weak up until his passing.
And when you said he remained weak, what were his condition? If you know that that which you know, I know that you are not a medical doctor. That which you know personally, not what you were told, that which you know.
pump that is easy.
Yeah.
My lord, I'll I'll withdraw that question.
And then you said he never got better until he he passed on.
>> Yes. Okay.
Now let us go back to yourself. Now warrant officer Kumalo has come to this court and testified that you can >> oh Lieutenant Kennel sorry Kumalo has come here to say that you were arrested on the 17th of October 2018. Do you recall that?
17 October 2018. Yeah.
>> Yes. In brief, can you relate the circumstances relating to your arrest on the 17th of October 2018?
2016 uh police arrived. They informed me that they were looking for me and that they were looking for me for a murder case of 2016.
>> Okay, proceed.
>> Yeah.
Upon their arrival and they arrested me, they found me in possession of an unlicensed fire firearm >> and left Kumaro testified that in respect of that firearm that arrest for possession of unlawful firearm you were charged under Nongoma 163 10 2018. Do you still recall that case?
16310 of 2018.
Yeah, ma'am. Yes.
>> And did you attend court in respect of I'm now being specific. I'm not referring to other matters that you had in 2016. for which you were arrested for in respect of Nong 16310 of 2018.
Were you incarcerated in respect of that church 2018?
Yes, I was incarcerated in up until my conviction uh at the high court in Peter Mitsburg.
>> And what was you said you were convicted in respect of Nong 16310 2018. What was the outcome sentence?
>> Yeah. 15 years and two years.
>> Uh it was 15 years and then two years for the for ammunition.
>> And where were you incarcerated then upon being sentenced on that matter?
Maris actually >> I was in prison in Marit >> and what's the name of the prison?
>> Marisburg.
>> Okay.
>> M.
>> Now was there a time where you were incarcerated at prison?
Yes. So that is where I was and other during when I was still awaiting trial.
So after conviction you were removed from prison 21.
Oh okay. I was then in other words during the trial 2020 20 2019 20 that was in Kagabusha 21 in 2021 then it was then now transferred to Mitsburg >> and do you do you have a recollection as to when the matter was finalized the cast 163 10 2018 finalized in Petburg.
16 2018.
Yeah.
>> Yes, I do.
>> When was that?
>> 25 March 2022.
>> 25 March 2022.
>> Okay.
>> Now, sir, are you currently in custody?
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> In which prison are you incarcerated?
>> For president.
>> Now sir, let's take you back to 2020.
Was there a time when you were approached by the in investigating officers of the Senzo Maywa case?
Yeah. 2020.
>> Yes. In 2020.
>> Do you recall the exact date or the month in 2020 when these officers came to you?
August July >> if I'm not mistaken I think it was in August or around July.
>> Okay. Now I want you to elaborate as to when these police officers approached you. What happened on that first time when they came to you?
I four police officers arrived. It was three males and one female.
Upon their arrival, they then asked me whether I was I then said yes.
H they introduced themselves uh or they also introduced themselves uh they mentioned their names and their surnames but I don't know uh who those names and surnames were because they were not familiar to me surnames that were not familiar they then informed me that they came to see me or they came to me with regards to the senior matter or case.
They then informed me that they were there to charge me that it was alleged that myself and my brother killed.
They then took out some documents that they had in their possession uh in order for them to charge me.
>> Uh they then charged me. They were done with whatever they were doing there with those documents. They then called someone else, another uh investigating officer or detective.
uh that one upon that one's arrival he then or he or she then said that they were there to just take DNA samples of my saliva then something was inserted in my mouth >> proceed they were then done I then said to them that once they were done charging me, I would like to to speak to them.
>> Okay.
and >> I then wanted to know from them who is this person that alleges that I killed Senzo. They then said to me that they were not going in for to tell me. I then said to them that in 2014 I was in custody or I was in prison.
Okay, 2013 October 2016.
I then informed them that date. Okay. I then informed them that myself and Marco were arrested in Benoni on the 23rd of August 2013 and we were released on the 18th of October 2016.
>> Yeah.
Proceed.
>> They then said to me, "Okay, we hear you." I then asked them to go and check or verify the information that I was uh giving them.
>> Okay.
>> Two weeks.
>> Wait before we go to that one. Now, when these four police officers approached you, at which at which prison were you incarcerated?
trial.
>> I was on trial and you said that you were approached by four police officers, three male and one female. Is that correct?
language did this police officer speak to you?
>> They were speaking in one of the prison authorities were interpreting or was interpreting for me.
And was there a particular police officer amongst themselves who was leading the questioning, the interviewing, the charging process or did all of them speak to you?
Uh the one that was leading them, there was just this one that was about lighter in complexion. Uh he was more or less my size. Uh he's the one that was leading.
And you say they told you in no uncertain terms that they are there to charge you for the case. Correct?
Yeah.
>> Yes. And that they also said that they had a witness who that particular witness told them that that witness was present and he was in uh in our company or together with us.
>> And did they tell you exactly the role that you allegedly played or the role that Mark Marco allegedly played?
No, they never said.
>> And during that interaction with the police officers, did they give you what is called a notice of rights?
Yeah.
>> Yes. They provided me with the the documents or the notice of rights.
>> Okay. And you say when they were charging you amongst the processes fingerprints were obtained from you. Is that correct?
Yeah. That's correct.
Now you say you interacted with the police officers and you told them that at the at the time of the commission of the murder of Senzo Maya, you and Marco were incarcerated and they told you that they're going to verify the information.
They'll come back. Correct.
Sorry.
Yeah. And with respect to that, what then happened after they charged you?
You've explained to them that uh you and Marco were incarcerated. What then happened?
If I'm not mistaken, it was mistaken. It was 2 weeks they came back.
Yeah.
to 8.
>> Uh when they came back, it was at night.
If I'm not mistaken, it was past 74 to 8 when they arrived.
>> Okay.
When I got to them, I found them together with the head of the prison.
>> Yes. Proceed.
uh upon arrival at the office I greeted they greeted I greeted and then there was this particular one who introduced himself I don't know whether he was a general or a canel said he was Ganinda and there was also another kennel and then the other two that were there previously together with the who I said was more or less my size who was leading from the previous uh group. Yeah.
>> Yes.
2016.
>> Uh then Ginder then said to me that Mr. We are here to apologize. Indeed, we have verified that in 2014 you and Marco were incarcerated and you were released on the day which you provided us with.
>> Yes.
Uh thereafter he requested me to write a statement uh confirming that indeed during that period myself and were in prison or were incarcerated.
>> Yes. proceed.
I then I indeed wrote that my lord that in 2013 we were incarcerated and also mentioned as to when were we released.
>> Yes. Proceed.
>> Yeah.
>> He then uh continued to write. Once he was done, he requested me to sign and I signed.
>> Okay. What happened after you signed that document?
uh he gave me or provided me with his contact details. I think he started with an 076. It was written on a on a paper.
Uh he said that if I happen to hear anything about this uh matter, I should inform him. He also had money on the one hand something about 100 rands uh sorry >> 100 >> 100 rand which he want which he gave me I then said that I want nothing to do with this I don't want what am I going to do with your cell number I also want also want nothing to do with the money already you had said or it was said that myself and map were involved in this matter and now it has been found that we were not involved so I want nothing to do with this >> and what happened there after sir I then requested the head of the prison to take me back to the section or where I'm being housed or was being housed.
>> Now, after this second uh visit or approach by the police officers investigating the Senzo Maywa case, was there further or subsequent approaches to you by the police officers?
No, they never came back that now coming to see me. Now let us go back to this uh statement that you said Gininda asked you to write confirming that that you and Marco were in prison. How was that statement made? Uh, who wrote the statement?
I think one of the police officers that >> that they were with wrote the statement but it was not Gininda.
>> So were you narrating the events and that officer who who was a scribe was writing down what you were narrating.
Yes. And after you had narrated, let let me strike that. Let me ask this one. Uh you said what you were narrating to that officer was in relation to you and Marco being in prison. Was there anything else that you narrated to that officer that was included in that statement?
mine just went up to that far just to inform the person as to where my whereabouts together with Marco.
>> And you said you were requested to sign that statement and indeed you signed a statement correct?
>> We are sure Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Now, before you signed that statement, was it read back to you?
No, I was not given the statement to read. After finishing, Ginda then instructed the one that was writing uh to have me sign which was now in confirmation that indeed myself and Marco were in custody during that period.
Now, regarding the interaction with the second interaction with the police where Bri Ginda is there, did he ask you about any other people's names that are allegedly involved in this matter of Seno?
Oh, he when I asked I again asked during that occasion as to who is it that alleges that we were involved in the killing of Senzo Maya. then mentioned uh one of the suspects before the court or the accused before the court.
>> And which suspect did you mention?
>> The witness is pointing.
>> And do you know that person yourself?
>> No.
>> Uh no, just used to see him at the host.
We were not acquaint acquaintances and I also knew that he was coming from originally from and when he mentioned what was your reaction Uh it came as a shock to me that how did it come about or how did it happen that would then mention myself and my brother that we were involved in the killing of Sena when he was very much aware that we were in prison at that time and Cibia is just someone that I used to see there uh at the host and the host is just full of people that are originally from >> and at which host did you occasionally see >> okay and then what happened there That is then how my discussion and ended because now I had found out as to who alleged that I was involved in the killing of Senua.
>> Now let's move to a different aspect.
Sir Evidence has been led in this court via Brigadier Gininda that there was a witness that implicated uh yourself and Mr. Antanzi in the selling of ammunition and firearms in Quazul Natal and Johannesburg.
Uh that is a big that is a mistake because unknown to me um seeing him for the first time here in court and I'm also said that he himself doesn't know me >> and when he was interacting with the late advocate Mr. Gomez Mr. at the time was representing Mr. Spia and Mr. Antanzi Briadier Gininda said that the suspect that is linking you and Mr. Antanzi to the firearm running gun running and ammunition running was simple.
Do you know anything about that?
That is not true. And I think they are also saying or telling something that is not true about SP being my brother and I think Sure himself doesn't know Tanzi and Tanzio does also not know Sio >> now and I just want to sum up your evidence it is your evidence here now today that you are seeing Mrananzi for the first time here in court is that correct Yes.
>> And it is also your evidence that Mr. Antanzi, you are sure that Mr. Antani does not know you. Correct?
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And it is also your testimony that does not even know. Is that correct?
Yes.
My if I may take instructions.
Um, As the court please myot my lord I see it's 11:00 Mr. Antanzi is instructing or requesting that we take a short agendment so that he may give me instructions.
>> Okay.
Yeah.
Now Mr. uh but just to brush on few aspects I'm at the end of my interaction with you this nong 16310 of 2018 for which you were arrested on the 17th of October 2018 is there a murder charge related to that offense?
for 2016.
Yes, it was a 2016 matter. That was the matter they were looking me for uh when they found me in possession of the firearm.
>> Sorry, sir. And I'm sorry to do this because this is examination in chief. We are cross talking at cross purposes. I'm only referring to Nong cast 163 10 2018 2018.
The one for that you referred to is according to warrant officer Kumalo it's a 410 06 2016 the one for murder 1412 2016.
2016 of 2016 10 2018 there was no murder related to that firearm.
>> Now let's come to this aspect. Now at the end of your interaction with uh Gininda Ganinda at the time you say you then request the prison order to take you back to the cells. Is that correct?
Yeah.
>> Yes. Now do you know accuse five Mr. here in this court.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> How do you know him?
>> Uh he is his mother is like in my my sister, my elder sister. So he's my nephew.
>> And did you meet him anywhere during your time in incarceration?
Yeah.
>> Yes, we were together.
And did you see him after your interaction with Brigadier Gininda when they approached you?
2014.
Uh yes, I saw him the following morning because I informed them or uh said that the police officers uh that had came to charge me for the matter of St. Maya came to apologize because they found out or they confirmed that indeed myself and Marco were in prison during the death of Sen.
Uh he then said to me, "Oh uncle, uh these very same people charged me uh in the during the evening." Which then means that when after they taken you to the cells, they then uh came to me and then that's when they charged me for the same matter.
>> And do you recall the date as to when you met met Mr. Douly after the approach by Kel Gininda and other police officers?
>> Does he recall that date?
where now he's interacting with to say I was charged yesterday and says they came to me the following day. When was that date or that period?
in July.
>> Okay. And it was in July of which of which year?
>> 2020.
>> 2020.
>> As the court, please my questions that I had for the witness. Thank you, Mr. Cross.
Thank you, Mr. Good day.
>> Thank you, sir.
>> And and and you, Mr. Jonas, sir.
>> I'm sorry about what happened yesterday between Bafana in Mexico, but we still have a chance. I saw you were lamenting in the morning, Mr. Jonas.
>> I'm sorry about that.
>> No, that doesn't concern any Chief's fan. All Chiefs fans are happy.
>> Oh, okay. No, thank you, Mr. Chas. In any event, let's let's proceed.
Mr. Bhutes, you are saying the day on which Brigadier came, he was in a company of three other police officers.
He was four.
>> Yes, he was the fourth one.
>> Yes. That is the day on which he came to apologize about making certain allegations about you in respect of the death of Senzo.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
Now you were saying um as Briatin was talking to you there's a gentleman or there was one of the police who was with him who was writing the statement that you ultimately signed.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
And from what you said when you been led by Mr. It's like it was never read back to you.
You also never given the the opportunity to read it back. I mean to read it on your own.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
And you say you do not know these policemen who were in the company or these people were who had accompanied on that day.
Yes. I can't remember them. Thank you.
Um and you are saying the day on which you gave that statement regarding your whereabouts at the on that is now at the time at which Senior died and soon thereafter in fact the following day you met accuse number five.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And you say that was in July.
>> Yes.
So subsequent there that too you never had any visitation. That is now according to your your testimony. You never had any visitation by either or any other police who could have been involved in the investigation of this case.
No, >> thank you my lord. That will be all.
>> Thank you. Any questions?
>> Thank you my daughter. On behalf of accuse number four and five, I have no questions to the witness. Thank you >> doctor.
I do have questions for witness.
>> Well, good morning Mr. and thank you for availing yourself to this court to assist the court.
Yes, sir.
>> And and want to start my crossexamination as follows. You have already testified that you know accuse number one before court.
Correct?
Yes. Just through by seeing him.
>> Where did you see him?
>> Hotel.
>> The host and that is in for >> Yes.
>> Were you also residing at host?
>> Yes.
>> And then together with your brother Marco.
Yes. Were you sharing a room with >> Yes.
And then you also indicated that you knew him as someone from Guanonga.
Correct.
>> Yes. Mr. has repeatedly told this code that he is not from he is from.
What is your comment?
So as I've earlier on indicated that I was he was not an acquaintance to me. It's just someone that I used to see by sight or just used to see from a distance. So according to me that the people that were there it's people from Guanong and Mabat to me that's uh the same.
>> So according to you is the same area.
Correct.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Thank you.
And then let's then now focus on your brother.
Can you also for the record again state what are his full names?
Does he not sometimes go by the name of Kani?
>> No, I don't know that one.
>> And then can you describe him his features for the court? How did he look like around the time you were at taller than me?
>> He was got a bigger build.
And then any other features?
No, nothing except >> okay. Uh other than to say that he was taller than me, of bigger build, nothing. And then the witness said, "Oh, I remember that he has a scratch this side indicating on the left side of the face.
I want to show you a I want to show you a photo that is following exhibit on the screen.
It's photo number 44.
You can do it closer. Approach the screen.
Do you see a person on a white shirt?
>> Can you identify that person?
>> And then can you identify any other person on that photo?
>> Yes. Can you identify that person?
Actually, I know all of them.
>> That's me there.
Can you just count starting from That's myself.
Thank you.
>> You said which one is again number.
>> Oh, next to you.
>> Yes.
>> And then the one that is squatting, you said it's quenza.
Yes.
>> How are you each related?
>> Okay.
Our fathers are brothers. I come after >> and it is your evidence that never had a name.
Correct.
I know.
Okay. I want to refer you to the record of the 2nd of August 2023 on page number nine. It was the evidence or cross examination of um Sergeant Mavasa.
I'll try to read slowly.
I'll start on line number 22 23 24.
Thank you. Now let us go to photo number 44. That is the photo.
The gentleman who is occupying the center stage here who is wearing a white shirt.
My instruction that is Mr. Kulani who is not accused number three who passed on unfortunately in 2019. He is also deceased.
2019 2019 that is correct.
Uh it's possible that that's the name that he was using or that he was called by. But the names that I know that are on on his ID, it's Marco Sabonga.
>> But this is the person that you said you grew up together. You were very close to each other.
Yes. But you did not know that name.
No, I don't know it.
>> And then the one that you say is he still alive?
Yes.
>> And then between a white shirt, which one is deceased?
The one with the white t-shirt.
And and during your stay at at Basing Hotel now in look exactly like that.
Yes.
He cut them in 2013 after we had been arrested.
So, okay. And then that was prior to your arrest in in August of 2023, correct? 2013. My apologies.
Yeah.
>> Yes. So, this photo was taken in 2023 2013. 23 August 2013. And at the time when you used to see Accuse number one Mr. Marco is a headlock. Correct.
>> Yes, he had them. Thank you. And and then let me finish on this photo now.
This photo was found on the cell phone downloads of accuse number three.
So now my question is do you know accused number three?
Yes.
>> How do you know him with him? He is like we are basically we are neighbors but we grew up together.
>> You said you are neighbors. Correct.
>> So >> yes a neighbor. We grew up together. We of the same age >> and and what is the name of the area in which you grew up together?
>> And and there was also a witness. You said you you know him as well.
Where is he from as well?
>> Madame as well.
>> Is he also known to accuse number three?
>> Yes. Are they also neighbors?
Uh yes. also neighbors the witness indicating maybe from where we are standing this is at home that is now the hotel's homestead and then over there the witness indicating to the wall right at the back that's the mobile homestead >> about right at the back >> 50 m my lord >> okay >> somewhere around there okay and then and then growing up how in which name did He go by number nickname Carlos.
>> Carlos >> Tob and then um after you have left the the homeland now to a goalie how did you meet accuse number three?
Yeah.
Cloas dog.
>> Yes. You stayed together in Kahus in the same house. Know what?
>> Host.
>> At the host. Thank you. And then did you at any stage meet with him in Yes, >> when you arrived in Foster for to go and stay there, I had already left. The witness was just thinking but can't remember when exactly it was.
>> Where was he staying in?
the host never stayed in the host. It was the township >> I think. And then do you know him also by the name of this >> I just say >> okay I just heard him being referred to as Gaja or the name being called as Gaja. It's a sort of a name that is now associated with being a a young man and then let us move to number four before.
Do you know him?
Yes.
How do you know him?
>> I also got to know him from the host >> that is now in fores.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. In for number four told this court that he has never set his foot inside the host in host. What is your comment?
objection might not. Thank you.
>> I'll request my colleague to put the question in a proper uh perspective or context and refer to a record the portion of the record where that was said because he he will normally and it's his practice that he will refer to portions of the record. I'll appreciate that he refers to that portion of the record and quotes when when that was said and by who. Thank you sir.
>> No no it's fine my lord I'll put that question and then I I'll get to that record my lord I will get that part of the record.
>> Okay Mr. I will get back to that question.
>> But is it your evidence that he knew him from state?
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Thank you. And you already said you know accuse number five before.
>> Yes. Now before we move to Ause number five, do you know where does accuse number four come from?
Yeah.
>> Yes. Where is he from?
>> Guan.
Do you know the village?
>> You know a place called >> Yes. Is he where he's coming from?
>> Yes, it is under.
>> Thank you. Now let us go to number five.
You said is your cousin, your nephew.
Can you explain that?
his mother is so he's my nephew.
>> His mother is here.
>> Yes.
What is the first name?
>> No, I don't know the name. She is uh older than me. Accused number five through his council advocate told the court that his mother is one.
>> Yes. Yeah.
Dul's mother is was born from the clan or surname she is from there >> but her surname she is from Zongo she's she's a zua Okay, there was no I just need now to put this properly in the traditional traditionally there was nothing that came forth in other ways sort of a acknowledgement in payment uh from the Zongu site. So she was raised uh by theis Thank you. Now there's a photo that is coming from exhibit S. Do you see that gentleman on that photo?
No, sorry. I don't know.
>> Page number seven, my lord. On exhibit S.
>> Yeah.
>> And then let us go to page number eight.
>> Can you identify the gentleman on that photo?
No, I can't see him. I don't know him.
This one is not clear.
Can you identify the people that are appearing on that page?
>> This is I choose number three.
>> And the other one This one is not clear.
>> That's photo number what >> number 101.
>> Can you get the sound away from I'm I'm just being told that they are away from the mic. Oh, I see.
>> Not sure if you'll be able to. Let me just lend you my copy number 11.
Yes. Qu number 11. Do you know that person?
>> Yeah. Yes.
>> I choose number three.
>> I choose number three.
>> Number 12.
>> Can identify the person?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
Can you describe the hairstyle?
Yeah.
>> Yes.
What kind of hairstyle is it?
>> I'm not threat.
>> It's dreadlocks.
>> And question number 18.
>> Can you identify that individual?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. Who is he? I choose three. I choose three. Can you describe his hairstyle?
Okay, >> it does not appear. It's not that clear, but it's red locks and then the witness indicating to the back number 14.
You know that individual?
>> I don't.
>> No, not at all.
>> And then number 16.
>> Yes, I know him. I know him. Who is he?
number three.
>> Uh it's he that now comes after him.
>> Yes.
>> And then can you describe his?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> It's red blocks.
Question number 16.
16.
>> Are you able to identify anyone there?
>> I choose three.
>> I choose three.
>> Any other person?
>> No, I can't see the others clearly.
>> Thank you. Then number 17.
>> Can you identify these individuals?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. Who are they?
>> I chose number five. I choose number three.
>> I choose number five and I choose number three.
And then are you familiar with the background?
No.
And then photo number 18.
Can you identify this individual?
>> Uh it's a masc from number 20.
Can identify the individuals there.
I choose number four.
>> Choose number four. The witness referring to the person with the black top.
>> Uh the person in the the witness is pointing the person in the middle to used to be a dancer.
Yes.
Thank you.
another gentleman there that you have not identified.
>> No, I can't see the person.
>> And then photo number three.
>> I choose number three.
>> You choose number three.
>> I am Muslim.
>> I don't know this one.
I choose number three.
>> I choose number three. I don't know this one.
>> I'm a thread.
>> It's thread lock number four.
Choose number four. I >> choose number four. I >> choose number three. I >> choose number three.
And then four to number 26.
>> I choose number three.
>> Choose number three.
>> And the other individual >> I am bonus.
>> No, I can't see the person clearly. Are you familiar with the background?
>> Yes.
>> Can you identify the place?
>> Joshua host.
>> Joshua host. So Joshua host number seven.
Choose number three. Choose number three.
>> Thank you.
>> Number 28.
>> Choose number five and then choose number three.
>> I choose number five and I choose number five.
>> I'm sorry. I choose number four and three.
>> I choose number four and three.
>> And then the third individual. Are you able to identify you?
>> We are Muslim.
>> No.
>> No.
>> Are you familiar with the background?
It looks >> It looks like back home in the villages, but I'm not sure where it is.
I choose number four.
>> You choose number four.
>> You familiar with the surrounding?
Looks like >> which one?
>> Number 53.
>> 33.
>> No.
>> And the individuals on page 34.
Page 34. Four and three. four and three.
>> Did you at any stage get to know a person called?
>> No, I'm not.
>> No, I don't know the person.
>> A person called um >> No, I'm not. No, I don't know the person.
>> There's a college of photographs there.
Are you able to identify those individuals in this photo?
>> I choose number three. You >> see, I choose number three.
numbers.
>> The others I don't know number 36.
>> Are you going to identify anyone?
>> I choose number three.
>> Uh this is I choose number three's sister.
>> I don't know the one with the spectacles.
Question number 37.
What what do you see there?
>> 37.
>> I see a photo of a firearm.
Are you able to determine what caliber of a firearm is it? If you know No, I don't know.
This another photo.
Number 38.
>> What do you see in that photo?
>> 38.
>> I see photo of a firearm.
>> What kind of a firearm is it?
>> I don't know them.
>> Are the two firearms the same?
one in the school.
>> There's a smaller one and the bigger one.
>> And then the small one, does it resemble the one that you were found in possession of in 2018? This is notation.
>> Yes sir.
>> I I thought the witness is here to give evidence and we can crossexamine him on anything. My lord, what brought this witness is the nongo case 163 of 10 2018 my lord. And then he was asked about that case and he testified about the arrest on that case as well as a firearm that was retrieved from him. My lord and and also my lord the investigating my apologies to Mr. The investigating office of um case 160 of 10 2018 has already testified about this evidence.
>> Yeah, the question is allowed please.
>> No, it's not the same. No, it doesn't resemble. Can you describe the one that was found on your position?
>> Objection.
>> Objection. Thank you.
>> Sorry. It's almost it's almost the same as the one that the police officer here is carrying.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. Objection my understand examination. Is it uh to investigate some uh cases that were finalized in the past because I don't think it will be a future exercise for the state to do that.
>> Yes, sir.
>> I I think I've answered this part that the witness was called to come and testify about the case that was finalized. My lord, was called by the defense to come and give evidence on a case that was finalized. My lord, you are merely following up on evidence that the state can elicit my lord.
>> My lord, mine is a different objection and it pertains to relevance. My lord, what is the relevance of this uh evidence pertaining to the grament of the issues that are to be determined here? I presumed that the issues that the firearm from which the witness was uh found guilty and sentenced in the Peter Marisburg court. So another court has already made the definitive conclusions on that matter. Why are we reviving that matter here? How is it going to help the court with respect to the sa case?
>> Yes. What's the relevant sir?
>> My lord, it it is relevant. The state is merely trying to show because at the center of this debate, my lord, is whether accused number two, the client of Mr. Ramilo was um um smuggling or dealing in firearms, my lord, and and and especially with this witness that is before my lord. So I'm merely trying to establish what firearms if he knows this what this firearm is my lord that's what we're trying to merely establish my lord because at the center of this debate is the firearms my lord you see the confusion right there and I'm trying to restrain myself and be colleial with my colleagues uh in my responses I want to be very tempered in my responses my colleague by his answer he acknowledges now he is trying 163 of 10 2018 because those allegations are made in a witness statement that I'm going to argue later it's inadmissible now we are reviving evidence that is not relevant before this court hence I stood up and said what is the relevance of this now he's saying I'm trying to show that Mr. Antanzi was dealing in arms in which case is Mr. is charged with dealing and running guns and ammunition in this case. Is it relevant here? And in response to what the witness said in my leading off, he says, "I don't know, Mr. Andi, but that's for argument. I don't want even to go there."
>> I not to add on that on what my colleague is saying. It is the duty of the police to investigate cases and not the duty of the prosecutor to investigate or seek information through cross examination. That is totally totally Thank you.
>> Yes sir.
>> So my we leave the points for argument for the sake of progress.
Thank you. Now let us go to accuse number five.
When was the last time you saw him outside prison?
2013 2013.
around 2013. Early in 2013 where it back home.
Thank you. Now let us go back at the date where you said you met with the investigating team.
Yes.
>> Can you clarify to the court? Did you encounter the investigating team once or twice?
uh twice my lord because they arrived at the for the first time and then they came back with the second occasion.
>> And did this visit by the investigating team also take place in front of the head of prison, Mr. Yeah, we found him.
>> Yes, that was on the second occasion.
>> So all that was happening, it happened in the presence of Mr. >> Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And and and Brigade was also present in these two instances.
Is it your evidence?
He was there on the second occasion.
Mr. Yaga gave evidence before this court on the 15th of April 2024.
He testified that the visit by the investigating team on the 19th of August 2020.
Okay. Okay.
>> Furthermore, before I read to you the passage, Mr. only testifies about one visit on the 19th of August, 2020, not any other date.
No, he made >> Sorry. No, he made a mistake. The investigating team went there twice >> and and that fact that you say he's making a mistake was never put to Mr. Never challenge.
I am disputing it. I'm saying that they came twice. They arrived on the first occasions. First occasion they were four. Again, the second occasion they were four and Yaga was there. And furthermore, Sergeant Mane as well as Brigadier Gin only testified about one visit that happened on the 19th of August 2020.
19 August 2020.
That is a mistake. My lord, they came there twice. Gininda was there on the second occasion. uh after the first visit my lord it two weeks passed and then they came after two weeks now with Ganinda included okay let's read what Mr. Yaga said okay I'll start on line number two okay on 19th August 2020 were you on duty Mr. Ayaka yes I was Mr. Baloy at is it correct that it was at a facility that you were heading at Galaka Busha Correctional Center Mr. Yaka yes that is correct Mr. Baloy can you tell the court in your words what transpired on that day this is important on paragraph 9 Mr. A on the day I started the day well and I did all the duties that I was supposed to do as the head of the prison and I was also expecting or awaiting investigators or investigating team that were coming to investigate one of of the inmates at the time they were and they were led at the time by Colonel Gininda. The day went on and then the time came or arrived when the prison had to be closed. But the investigators that were there were not yet done. Whilst at that the prison be being closed, I then received a call on my phone. But the number did not appear.
The phone that was calling us, is that the head? And then said yes.
April 2024.
foreign.
Oh, Thank you. Do you understand what Mr. is saying?
>> I understand it >> but it is not true.
And then when Mr. received this phone call that he's talking about, were you present?
>> No, I was not present.
>> And can you dispute that the team was there to investigate one of the inmates?
I am not disputing that. What I'm disputing is that the team did not or the investigating team did not visit the prison twice because they came to visit me at first and then on the second occasion when they came to visit me uh Yaka was there, Gininda was there and Yaka was the one that took me out from where I'm being kept or housed.
>> Can you dispute that this incident took place on the 19th of August 2020? Oh, please >> objection my lord. I I I my lord my submission is that I don't think it would be proper for the state to question this witness about the visits of of the 19th of August. Uh because uh there is no evidence whatsoever up to so far from either Mr. Yaga or Mr. Gininda that is priya gininda I'm sorry that at some point when the visit was made at kagabusha prison they met the witness before court thank you >> yes sir >> please m I just read the passage but the fact of the matter is that the name of this p of this uh witness is not mentioned but the visit was to see one of the inmates my lord My my I'm sorry uh my my colleague in fact just to add on that Mr. Yaga when he was caught before this court it was for the purposes of the search that was conducted at Galaga Busha prison in the cell where Mr. and duly was kept not about uh the charging of any uh person with reference to the witness before court. Thank you.
>> Yes, doctor.
>> My that that is not what the evidence say. On that day, the investigating team was at Kalakabusha prison to visit one of the inmates.
>> Not not that the witness in court.
>> It is not said. In fact, my lord, if I then go deeper into the evidence, the evidence will show that they were visiting the witness before court as per the statement that was taken by quote it. Quote it so that I also informed >> my there is a statement dated 19 August.
It was taken at Kalakabusha prison at on 19th August 2020 and then the name of the deponent is not understand from the The court says, "Show us in the record where Mr. which is the evidence of now the court says okay show me that evidence on record not from anywhere else but on record so waiting for the state to pinpoint exactly on record where does it say the the offic going to see I think that bridge first before we go further otherwise we will be leaving some gaps in our in our in our want the state to directly discord the state says he wants to go deeper go deeper yes my lord I did say there's nohere in the record that Mr. Yaka said the investigating team went to see this witness. But however, if my colleagues insist that I find part of the record where said at some stage he did go to Talaga prison to see M the witness before that I can do my >> Yeah, they say do that.
>> It is not even it is. Yeah, but when the yaka was there, but we would expect the state to point where that this witness was the one that was consulted by the team of officers.
I'm not sure if the code is going to allow me to just use the computer to find that part of the record and the other part that I said I'm going to put in.
>> Yeah, fine. My beans.
May I request a few minutes a gentleman so that I can just quickly report.
>> What's your time?
>> 12:36.
I can come back at 2. Two. Okay. Fine.
My lord, I am indebted to the court for allowing me an opportunity to go through the record and find that questionify that how we got to the witness before just give a Mr. It is is evidence of Briad Ginda dated 18th October 2024 on page it will start on page number 14 I'll start on line number 14 page 14 18 October 2024 evidence of just to give it also a context my lord I will Start on uh line 14 Mr. Gininda.
So if you go to paragraph one of the annex in other words the statement my lord after the performer it reads as follows that on the week in that year during the week it was on a Wednesday I was at my at my place at the host in Basutu section I received a call from my friends Marco Bhazi and Makima Bhazi both were staying at Basutu host Badulu section the person who was calling me was Marco but I heard on the background that he was with Makima.
I told him that I am present and he said he is coming with Makima. So it is this so it is the v my lord that continues to keep up to the time to give up to the time that he alleges that they went to kill the deceased in this matter. We followed this version my lord page 15 and found that that was not correct because there were two people who were in prison from 2013 to 2016.
Now we're on page 15 and then line three the interpreter said I I have lost some of the details Mr. Now my lord is also supposed to because we managed to get to him and a statement from him was obtained with regard to this at as as one was trying to collaborate his confession. My lord 18 October 2024.
Hotel section. for 2013 16.
and then the explanation um proceeds on the proceedings of 18th October 2024 on page 15 line 8 Mr. Baloy and where did you find him Mr. online 9. I found him at Galakabusha prison my lord in KZN that that is where he was incarcerated and the records my lord confirmed that he was indeed in detention from 2013 together with his brother Marco and they were released briefly in 2016 where he was arrested again and that is Salani Salani and thereafter Marco was then killed I think around 2019 we also obtained his death certificate.
He was shot. He was shot and killed.
2013 16.
2019 certificate.
That is the passage that I wanted to read out. Yes sir. So if there's still further submission from my colleagues and I don't know how to say this but I'll try and say it in a very respectful way the best way in which I can.
The state says the state my lord says on the 19th of August 2020 Briatainda actually visited this witness here and they sought to confirm that with a testimony of Mr. Yako.
Mr. came here and testified and the state I mean the state read from a passage that said that Mr. O says on the 19th of August 2020 the investigating team in this case visited the prison where they had a consultation with an incarcerated person they don't mention who that person is and then we stood up and said but did that mean that that person who was visited it is this witness then the state said yeah no is this witness I can even go deeper and show that and and and show the court where Mr. Ako is talking about this witness.
They did that unsuccessfully for the first leg. Then they requested for a short for a for a longment to come and show this court that the area where they went to and duck very deep would come and tell this court that Mr. Yako says actually on the 19th of August 2020 the investigating team in this case went on to see this witness mother but now they're coming up with something totally different this the passage that they are reading does not even refer to the date that has been referred to by Mr. Yako and they now reading what Mr. Kininda is saying not what Mr. said according to them as I'm saying my lord I don't know how to put it this but in the most respectful way my lord I don't think they are caught with what they initially indicated when they started with this issue my lord thank you >> yes coaching the correct person my lord I said I remember saying mra does not say specifically this. He was expecting visitors.
>> Yeah.
>> The investigating team to investigate one of the inmates >> and I said I will look deeper and then I'll find a passage where he went to see this witness before if one reads the evidence of Mr. combined then one can tell that they the 19th of August 2020, the investigating team were there to see this before.
So you're saying there were six, >> pardon, my >> there were six people there.
>> No, my lord, according to >> just listen four was accompanied by how many people?
>> He said there were four, right? Again, >> four, >> number five, number six.
>> Yeah, >> that's what I'm saying.
that was explanation mister that's what he's saying >> according to this witness it was who was accompanied by three other people it was doing the talking and the other one was writing he can't he does not know this other person was writing and that happened and and that happened in July according to him because soon after that is now the following day soon after they consulted with him or they were there to see him go and apologize if I were to say thank you mad because the following day after they had consulted with him he had had a conversation with accuse number five who was also housed in the same correctional center. Accuse number five told him that no in the evening they also approached him with a view to charge him but then he did not cooperate with them. So I I I do not know the the the six people and this witness specifically says that was in July although it does not remember the date. It's far from the date of the 19th of August 2020.
>> Okay. You can you can you can review that's in argument.
>> Yes.
>> Yes sir.
Say let me let me rephrase and just ask this question differently.
Exrogated.
Are you saying when Brigadier Ganinda came to see you in the office of Mr. There were six people there including yourself and Mr. Yes, it is evidence before this court that on the date in which Ganinda according to the state version it was Brigadier Ganinda and Sergeant that visited you at crazy I report although I do not know as to who Sergeant Muan is but that is a mistake my lord uh uh it was Gininda uh the other police officer and then two of them my lord were not there for the first time they were there with the initial group otherwise the group that came for the first time and furthermore kuring the state version the name of accuse number five came after Mr. Aka indicated to the team, the investigating team led by Brigadier Ginda that a phone or a cell phone was found from the um position of accuse number five.
I won't be able to comment. I don't know as to whether the phone was found or what happened on the day that they charged him.
>> Furthermore, it was the evidence of um Mr. that after he discovered the cell phone, he then alerted the investigating team that was at the prison to investigate one of the inmates.
as I am saying that I don't know as to what happened. Uh as I'm saying that he came to me to come and apologize there after I heard from Tuli that they charged him. as to what happened.
>> Furthermore, we put it to you that you were never charged on for case 636 of 10 2014. A witness statement was merely obtained from you by 636 of 2014.
If they take your fingerprints as well as the DNA samples from you, what does that mean?
>> Further put it to you that indeed a statement was obtained from you dated 19 August 2020.
1920.
Thank you. And then it is also common cause that from August 2013 to October 2016, you were incarcerated as well as Yes, I understand. Do you agree with that?
>> Yes.
And then further put it to you that Brigadier Gin merely followed that information up until the stage where you were found at prison.
I hear you. And then can you dispute that if an investigation is done on the prison system with your name and surname and ID number one can easily establish that this particular person is housed in a particular prison?
Uh, not knowing as to where they got my details or my my details from for them to be able then to do that followup. I pray to you that your details were finished by a person who said you were involved.
Okay.
>> Okay. If you say so then I would agree with you >> and then further put it to you that the person who said you were involved in the killing of Mr. Sbert may misleading the police.
Okay. Okay. And I further put it to you that the person that misled the police knew that you and your brother were incarcerated at the time.
Why not?
So, all right. And then lastly on this, that person knew that your brother Marco had dreadlocks prior to your arrest in August 2013.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And then do you confirm that indeed Marco had dreadlocks prior to your arrest in August of 2013?
>> Yes.
>> Prior to his your arrest. Now I'm referring to you and Marco. Can I say you did own a motor?
>> No.
>> Did you have a motor vehicle?
>> No. Thank you. Now you further testified that inside the office that you in of Mr. Gabria gave you an amount of 100 grand.
He offered off as well as Yes. As well as his number.
That is his contact number. Did you say why? Why is he offering you an amount of 100 times?
the number.
>> He didn't because I did not I was not interested. I did not want to take the 100. I also did not want to take his contact number. I put it to you say that you are misleading the court. You are fabricating a story that did not happen in the presence of Mr. I would not tell lies under oath and just for no apparent reason say something about him or lie about him >> and Gininda as well as Mr. never testified about that offer of 100 as well as the cell phone number would not have said that because he knew what it is that he was doing. There is no way I'm I'm uh I'm in prison. uh and then you can just give me or offer me 100 in my hands that is against the law.
>> I f put it to you that it is fabrication that gave you a cell phone number starting with 076. As a matter of fact, never had a number starting with 076.
The one that he gave me as well as the hands, it started with the 076.
I put it to you that you are misleading the court. That did not happen especially in the presence of Mr. And you said today that you are not allowed or is prohibited by law to give an inmate money.
That is uh what happened and and there is no way or that is also what came as a surprise or as a shock to me and I will never tell lies about him.
Now let us move on.
Do you know an individual?
>> I do not have any hatred against him. I think it has been scouted but do not have any hatred against him.
>> Now let us just backtrack a bit.
Do you know any individual?
No. Do you know an individual known as >> I know him.
>> How do you know him?
>> I choose one.
>> Okay.
Okay. Yes.
>> I choose.
>> I was sentenced with him.
>> Do you know an individual called?
>> No.
>> Thank you. Now let us go to your arrest in 2018.
Is it correct that you were arrested in a place called >> Yes.
>> Is it correct that firearm as well as ammunition were recovered from you?
Yes. And a J5 warrant of arrest was executed on the dating question.
I would be telling lies. I never saw it.
>> Lieutenant Kumar testified before this court that on that day when the police arrested you they were executing a J50 warrant of arrest for Nongo Marquez 4 12 2016 investigated by warrant officer.
12 2016.
I would not dispute that they had it with them, but I didn't see it.
>> And it was he further testified that you were then arrested and processed for Nong case 163 of 10, 2018 on a charge of unlawful possession of firearm as well as ammunition.
16 of 2018.
>> Yes. And then you were also further charged on 410 of 12 2016 charge of murder 12 2016.
Yes. Uh but uh may I request my lord that we do not go into the details with regards to the 410 12 2016 ma case of I think that we are here with regards to the firearm matter.
Okay. Now, but I want to ask you one question from that.
>> Did you then attend the possession of firearm as well as ammunition with the med together?
Yes, I was on the same time or at the same time but they were then called under different case numbers but they were what's the word that we use? Um consolidated >> consolidated that's for the yes but they were consolidated >> just don't understand were you appearing firstly for ammunition charge murder or they were called at once and then you dispose of them at once High Court.
Okay.
>> They were consolidated when I was now transferred to the high court. When I was still at the district court or regional court, district court I think they were separated >> and then at the high court they became one case.
Yes.
And then do you know the previous witness Is he working underinc?
tax team although I don't know him but there were many that were in the task team >> thank you now let us then now zoom into can you remind how are you related to him He is my big brother. His father is my other paternal uncle.
>> He's also from >> Yes.
>> And then can you confirm that in the during the year or on the 16th of June 2020 you were incarcerated?
>> Superior or the witness?
>> The witness.
1620.
>> Yes. Which reason?
>> And you also testified that does not know accuse number two.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> How do you know that?
uh if I do not know and then the chances are very slim that simp would know I choose number two because my brother and I stayed with him >> but you were not together with him on the 16th of June 2020.
Yes, Impa was also in custody at that time.
>> Say that is incorrect.
>> As per your evidence was released somewhere 2019, 2020, 2020.
>> Yes indeed. I did not confirm. I was not certain about the year as to which way exactly it was. So I am putting to you that on the 16th of June 2020 was not incarcerated.
>> Okay, I hear you. But uh I can I can assure you that SI doesn't know D also also doesn't know SI that I'm setting off. But you cannot put that put that as a matter of fact that you know everything about I know he's my brother. We stayed together for a long time although I was incarcerated but there's nothing that I don't know about >> and also evident in this court that you were not with from 2013 up until 2019.
2019 report 2017.
>> No, that's a mistake. 2017 and 2018 we were together >> where back home and also in >> where inas >> where were you staying?
was residing in the township in Helburg.
And and this is what Su said on the we found this on the record of 23 January 2024 page 25. Does the evidence of Brigadier Ginda just want to read a line invited me to visit him in there?
I'm listening. This is what people said in an under oath.
sir.
>> Uh, which year was the statement, man?
>> The statement was made on the 16th of June 2020.
>> 16th June 2020.
>> All right.
>> Okay. I'm listening. I hear you.
>> And then you were not with CP during that date, correct?
Yes, I was >> uh yes, I was incarcerated but I am certain that and do not know each other and I'm also going to make a request uh to have the number or to see the number that Danzi was calling on.
And on and you you cannot dispute that on the 26 on the 16th of October 2020 a cheese number two was arrested um somewhere in Freedom Park Rustin 16th June 2020 I don't know because sorry >> I don't know it because I I choose number two is unknown to me and I won't be able to comment about him >> and then on line 1314 proceedings of the 23rd of January 2024 still the evidence of gininda statement of blesi Let me start on 911.
I voluntarily decided to work with the police to trace on 16th June. I took the police to and showed them a place wherein Dan is staying. I also positively pointed him out.
right?
Maybe this is another simple that reference is being made to here because the siway that is now my brother was sick and every time I called back home or I would call home I would I was told that simp is sick he was sick that is now from the time he was released up until the time of his passing >> and as a result Bangani signs he was arrested on the 16th of June 2020 as a result of this information.
2020.
>> So that we have our concrete evidence.
Hence then made a request that I be shown you the numbers that they were contacting each other on for me to be able to show to see that that number indeed indicates and the other number indeed indicates Danzi and then furthermore the information that is contained here on this paragraph is also confirmed by Sergeant that indeed the address of number two was pointed out by my recollection of Sergean is that the address of was pointed out by an informer. He did not mention He's not an informer.
He >> said inform me. I listen and with understanding.
>> Yes.
>> Remember Sio said I decided to work with the police.
>> In order to wait.
>> Yes, I'm listening.
>> In order to show them where number two stays, whatever. I decided to wait. It may not be so, but I understand that.
Yes.
>> To say I am a collaborator with the police. I'm an informer.
>> Did Simpure.
>> So you can say anything you want after that.
>> Did Simpure testify in this court?
>> I don't know.
>> Simpify.
>> Okay, fine. No problem.
>> What we have here is hearsay evidence from somebody who's deceased, who's never set foot and said anything in this.
>> Okay, fine. They say it's here evidence, sir.
>> I am reading what is contained in the record. My lord, that record refers to a statement by Mure that I said it's a difficult read. This impure died before he testified in this court.
He has never testified in this court.
This evidence remains untested and the state has never made an application in terms of the hearsay evidence act to have this admitted man. So big gininda is is is referring to this statement of what allegedly came from the mouth of Mr. Bles. I'm saying to this question or position that was put by my learned colleague to say Sergeant Muan says the house of Mr. was appointed by simp >> he says it was an inform that's my >> okay you get the last part before the objection I'll just I said it was confirmed by Sergeant Mi that the house of an was positively pointed out by Mr. Okay, I hear you.
And then furthermore, the AVL record of the Toyota Fortuna that the investigating team was using on the day places that vehicle during the day um in the vicinity of the address of number two. You cannot be that.
Thank you. I hear you. Thank you. Now I I said there's a point where I said I said I I I putting it in a way where Mr. Nalo objected when I put the proposition. I want to also read the record what the record says.
24 July 2024 was the evidence of Miss Binky Russia by filling him Mr. Numalo on page 87. I instructed by the accused that accused for that he has never been or said his food at Moseni host where he met one of the witnesses. The state witnesses constable on where it was alleged that he constable on 26th October 2014.
Can I just My not my colleague is correct. It was in that context, the context of Zongo meeting my client on the 26th of October 2014.
>> It was in that context. Then I would invite my colleague to go back to the question that he was asking the witness before I objected to to to his line of crossexamination. Thank you.
26 October 2014.
And then my question then was to say number four said he has never been to where he met um the witness Mr. 26th of October 2014.
26 October 2014 number 2013 2012 2014 2014 that's exactly >> I know I choose number four from the host or by seeing him at the hostel between 2012 2013 and not 2014 2014 I was already in custody >> thank you we leave it at there now say you testified that you made a statement.
>> Yes.
Thank you. And then you said it was at a time when you were at Correctional Facility. Correct.
>> Yes.
And the statement was reduced to writing.
Yes.
Also testified that they took a statement from yourself.
Yes.
And at this stage can you also confirm that your full name Yes. And then you were born in 1986.
August 1986.
>> Yes.
>> And then you also confirmed that you also signed the statement.
>> Yes. And then your ID number is also on the statement. I want to read it just for your security.
Yes.
And and then I want to then show you a document at a stage. It's in the original.
And you see that document?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. Do you recognize the signature at the bottom of the statement?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. Is that your signature?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
And then on next on the next page of the statement, there's also a signature.
You see that signature?
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
And then there's also a date um just above your signature date >> 198 2020 >> 1908 2020 and the time >> start >> 8:00 >> 8:00 and then there's also a signature at the bottom of the statement.
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> Yes. And then there is a signature of Ganinda Ganinda. Okay.
>> Okay.
And and you said this statement was taken from you at a time prison. Correct?
>> Yes. And this statement was taken by I wouldn't be certain but at the time when Gininda was talking someone else was writing who was with him but as an officer of this court now I know that this handwriting is the handwriting of All right. All right. And then you also confirmed that this is your signature as well.
Yes.
There's one on the first page and there's signature also on the second page.
Yes.
>> Yes. And the statement was duly commissioned.
Okay.
All right.
And and then it says it was done so in his presence.
And the date there that is appearing is 202089 820 19 of August 2020.
>> Thank you. And then it was also your testimony that this document was never read back to you.
Yes. In what language were you communicating with Gind as well as the people that he was with?
was conversing in >> I think he was conversing in English.
>> So how did you manage to communicate with him?
The president was assisting us.
So as you question as a translator so can also attest to what was being written on this statement.
Yes. Thank you.
My lord at this stage the state begs leave from the court to then confront this witness with the contents of the statement that he signed commissioned in his present interpreted by Mr. Yaga. The only issue is the one of credibility whether the indeed the witness brigad did read the statement back to the department.
>> What's the time?
256.
>> Okay. Fine.
>> The finding therefore or is the view that despite the fact that the statement was never the statement was adequately proven.
>> No, he's proving it.
>> What are you doing now, sir? He is saying my may I then proceed to this witness with the concept of the statement despite the fact that >> this witness says it was never read back to him >> and he never read it and that's a question of credibility. Now I'm asking this court, this court is therefore of the considered view that despite that >> necessary has been proved >> the court is of that view because >> thank you madam >> the doctor is trying to prove the statement.
Yeah.
>> Okay.
It says first case 636 of 10 2014.
I'll make a copy available to Mr. Iani born 1986806.
ID number I will not read it. State under oath in English.
You can interpret. Okay. I want to ask questions. All right.
August 1986.
And then do you confirm this is uh this is your name and surname?
Yes. And then do you also confirm that this is your date of birth as well as the ID number?
Yes, I can confirm the year uh the ID number although I do not I'm not certain when it comes to the last numbers but uh at the beginning yes I can confirm the ID number >> and then who provided this information birth date of birth.
>> I'm the one who provided him the information but up to the date of birth.
>> But you also did give him your full names as well as the surname. Correct.
>> Yes.
And then it reads, I am an adult male born 198680806 and currently incarcerated in correctional service as of 17th October 2018. I am originally from 1986 806 October 2018.
Yes. Do you confirm all this information?
Yes. Did you provide this information to >> Yes.
>> And then that was through the inter of the day.
>> Yes.
>> I would like to state that was my biological brother. He was born 1982 February 12.
12th of February 1982.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes.
And then furthermore, just on the previous paragraph that you were incarcerated at Busha prison as of 17th October 2018, did that information come from you?
October 2018.
Yes.
And that Marco is your brother.
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And he also gave the name.
Was it you?
I mentioned the name of Marcos and I never mentioned the name of and then you confirm his date of birth as well.
2020 uh 23 August 2013 both of us Marco and myself were incarcerated detained and kept in prison.
>> Okay. 2013 23 August.
Okay.
Is that correct?
>> Yes.
>> Who is the source of the information?
>> It's me.
Yes.
>> As well as Yes.
>> No bail was granted on both of us. We were incarcerated in Freehead Prison from 2013 0823 to 2016 1018.
2013 2308 2016 10 18 >> 2016 >> 2016 10:18 >> Yes. Day 18 October 2016.
>> Is that correct?
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Who gave this information?
>> It's me.
>> Was he writing this information as you were talking to him?
Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> I was then arrested again in October 2018 to date.
October 2018 2018.
>> Yes.
Paragraph four.
During the year 2014, myself and my brother Marco were in prison.
Yes. Is that correct?
Yes.
Who was the source of this information?
I was the source of the information. I will further state that I know personally who is my homeboy from Okay.
Let's just hold it right there. Mine ends right here. The witness pointing out where it ends with during the year 2014 myself and my brother Maflesi were in prison. The witness says mine ends just there. Now with regards to Musa was my homeboy. I know nothing about that.
>> Okay.
Do you personally know?
>> I know him just by sight by seeing him there at the host as I earlier on indicated.
>> Yes. My question is do you personally know Mr. Yes. just by sight by seeing him there the hostel >> and then he also said in the statement that he's my homeboy from >> all right >> all right >> and it was your evidence earlier on that you said from that assume that from Yes.
used to stay at.
>> Okay. I hear. Does it accord to evidence that you gave on today that I know and I used to see him at the hotel.
But with regards to my statement, what I said to Kininda, it goes to as far as my arrest together with my brother. But anything else that is happening here now, I know nothing about it.
>> Okay. But what is written here that I've just read to you falls within your personal knowledge.
What is what is contained in here with regards to Moses? I know nothing about it as I indicated that I just know him there at the host.
>> But it's correct that was staying at the host according to your evidence.
Yes. Yes. I hear you did say that.
>> May I not respond to that?
>> Why not? You've been responding.
>> Because that which is written here mentioning I know nothing about it. But I'm talking about the fact that you said you used to see him at the height >> as the court miss. Sorry to intervene for the cross examination here. The evidence earlier was that I knew Musa I used to see him around the hostel. He has never said he used to reside at the host. Does the court bless his mouth?
Where's Mrs. CB?
prior to the witness.
>> Yes, I used to see him there. Thank you.
I was asked and questioned by the police on the case of Senzu Maywa. I told them the above information.
Oh, okay.
Yes. Did you tell that?
Yes.
As I said that my part with regards to the statement ended here where it reads about my incarceration as well as my brother and he carried on writing. I didn't know what it is that he was writing and I was also not going to ask him.
>> Sir, was it not your evidence earlier on today that did not take the statement from you? It was taken by someone else.
I saw someone else writing, but I heard it here in court when the prosecutor said that this is writing.
>> I put it to you that you are fabricating your evidence as we go along.
I cannot fabricate it because indeed I would not have been able I would not have said something that I know nothing about with regards to Senzo's death.
>> Thank you. I I I skipped a a line a very important one. He knew me and my brother Marco very well.
>> Are you on the next page?
>> No, you're still on the same page. Just after Flores. Keep the line there.
After Flores on that page that Mr. Jonas Yeah.
Okay.
I hear you.
Maybe he knew us very well and we don't know him very well but you were residing together during the time.
Yes, we were residing in one block and he was residing on the other block.
I further told the police that I suspect is the person who may try to mislead the police by moving the blame from him and shifting it to me and my brother.
I'm a police.
How would I have said that? Because Mi pointed to us and said it was us. So, how would I now have said that it was him?
Did you give this information?
>> I heard from that.
>> I said it earlier on as well. I that I heard from that Mi was saying that it was myself and my brother. Did you say I cannot say something like that? I cannot say to the police that I suspect someone with regards to someone's death.
>> Why from what I have read to you was there no attempt by anyone to mislead the police as to the people that were involved in the death of I don't know. I am saying what was said to me by Ganinda that Moses said that it was myself and Marco.
>> Okay. Do you then confirm again once more that you and your brother on the 26th of October 2014 you were incarcerated?
26 October 2014.
Yes.
>> And any attempt to point towards your direction will be misleading.
I do not know whether it was misleading or that that in school was misleading a lot and also hence I am then saying that because that is what what then was said to to me by Gin that it is Muzi who said that. So hence I am saying that what is written here or contained here my lord that I I would not have been in a stage or in a position to then say this to Ginda.
But I want to understand say could you and your brother have committed this offense in light of the records or your own evidence that No, we would not have been able to. So I'm saying to you, any attempt to point towards you and your brother is misleading.
Objection my lord I don't think this question is proper to the witness because it does not know the basis or the objections or the grounds upon which Moses be challenged the admissibility of that statement as regard the contents of that statement which is the alle confession statement which statement are talking about relating to accuse number one.
>> I thought the doctor here is examining Mr. on the basis that given the fact that he was in jail on the 26th or 25th of October, it could not be possible for him to have killed or murdered forever. Is that not how you're phrasing it?
>> That is correct, my lord. He he he he he gets that from the confession statement from the al confession statement of accused number one the contents there of directing the police to to this witness.
So I'm saying it would not be proper for this witness be to be invited to comment on that because there were there were bases that were laid before this court is allowed.
Do you have a response?
I'm saying is it not misleading for someone or is it not misleading for someone to point towards as well as Marco as the people that were involved in the murder of Seno Robert Maya on the 26th of October 2014 in light of the fact that the witness and his brother were incarcerated on that day 26th October 2014.
26 October 2014.
I'm saying as if this is the court because I've got an objection.
The court says the state is allowed to continue with certain questions here because they're trying to prove the statement that which has been asked from this witness by the state now is it still part of trying to prove the statement.
My lord, >> sir, what are you what are you trying to do? I'm still on my >> I've just said that my lord the court the state the state has said despite the fact that >> it is trying to prove that the statement was made >> yes >> yes ma'am >> but then I'm asking is it still intelligent enough to ask this type of a question with a view to try and prove that the information is coming from this accused that this last question which is phrased in the following context. Is it therefore not misleading to just to suggest that you were you and your brother were involved in the killing of >> who says that >> is the state?
>> No, but the doctor's question is simple.
>> Yes.
>> He says because you were incarcerated.
>> Yes. Is it not misleading for anybody to in to intimate that you killed >> so and so?
>> Therefore, my lord, my objection is how relevant is that question to to try and prove that this statement then was made by this witness?
>> No, the question is disallowed.
>> I can understand the court does also not understand.
>> Yeah. No, I don't understand variability.
>> Yes. Yes.
Because this is not about this is just intellectual scrutiny. Here somebody says Ratta killed Senzoa yet Ratta was in jail on that particular day. Now this with this council is saying is it not misleading for anybody to insinuate that you rat you killed Senzu because you were in jail.
What's wrong with it? It has got nothing to do with proving who killed who.
>> Okay, >> I respond.
>> Yeah, fine.
>> The court has just said the motion is disallowed. So the court does not need to further justify it ruling. The court is >> Yeah. Okay. Fine. Okay. Yeah. Fine. Go on, sir.
Then on the next page under oath that I am saying this because it was openly spoken in Guanonga area when I came out in prison around 2016.
That was involved in the killing of Sen.
2016.
Did you give this information to?
>> No, I know nothing.
>> Did you come out of prison around 2016?
>> 2016? Yes.
>> Are you also from?
>> Yes.
>> Is also from >> Yes.
>> I have no evidence of this, but this was commonly spoken.
spoken where?
>> No, I don't know.
Uh with regards to my statement my statement my statement goes goes as far as the witness indicated paragraph 4 during the year 2014 myself and my brother Marco were in prison the witness and fellow says my lord anything else beyond that my lord I never said it and I don't know as to who wrote it I can identify when I see him Are you able to identify as I'm saying my lord I would just like uh to with regards to my statement I would just like to end where I indicated to the court that is how far I took it I cannot proceed with anything else which I know nothing about.
>> But I'm asking you this question, you are you able to identify which is then why I'm also requesting that I would just like to stop there with regards to my statement. I said nothing with regards to Musia. It was Ganinda who told me that Moses pointed fingers at me and my brother Marco. That was said to me by Ginda.
>> But why is it so difficult when um Mr. Ramos asked you? You said the pointed towards the direction of number one.
>> Why is it so difficult for you to answer my question at this stage?
You see that question is asking in the context of the statement in the statement that the state is saying is trying to prove he cannot compare what was said by Mr. earlier on and that which is happening now. This witness says I said nothing about in the statement that I gave I said nothing about and part of that which the state now wants to from this effect that this statement says I can point out when I say when this witness says I never said that in my statement >> yes let me change the question now say let's put a statement aside are you able to point That's that's respect that which has been asked now and that which has been tried to be asked prior to my objective. the same thing.
There's no difference.
Okay, let me ask the question.
In your own evidence, you said you know, correct?
>> Yes. From one to five, who is I choose number one.
>> I choose number one. Thank you. I see 1529.
We can proceed on Monday. I will finalize the state window.
I further request that the statement be handed up and marked exhibit Z12.
I will finalize the statement on Monday.
cannot simply objection the statement cannot simply have prior to the court having proved to that on the basis of what has been happening there I therefore find that the statement has been adequately proved at least that's the law that I know >> yeah so we are a Monday >> Monday my yes >> okay fine you again Monday
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