Mark Golding EXPLAINS USA Sending Deportee's Back to Jamaica

[00:00:00]So the opposition leader Mark Golden decided to take it upon himself to provide much needed clarity regarding the US deciding to use Jamaica as a a dumping ground. That probably sound a bit a bit harsh, but in a nutshell, that's what it is. US deciding to use Jamaica as a place to send non-residents to in case they had any violations or anything. So, what I actually find shocking is that this update was provided courtesy of a content creator, a Tik Tok content creator, One Clause.

[00:00:31]Kudos to you, my friend, for actually reaching out to seemingly what looks like your father, cuz bro, you can't tell me. You can't tell me Mark Golden is not your father, bro. So, I've never listened to this interview before. So, we're all going to be watching together and see if we can actually get some some much needed clarity because this situation is shocking to him, we think.

[00:00:52]people. Let's take a listen and see >> to this um story that emerged at the beginning of the week um when the Gleer um ran a scoop uh you know they had received a copy of anou >> Mhm. um memorandum of understanding between the US government and the Jamaican government uh for the creation of an arrangement whereby the US would be able to send third country nationals TCN's >> meaning persons who are not citizens of Jamaica >> Mhm. would be sent to Jamaica. Persons who the US want to leave their country >> um would be sent here and issues around that. Now we've never had any such arrangement before.

[00:01:43]>> We receive our nationals when other countries um don't want them to be there any longer. We you know we have an obligation to receive our nationals and we're accustomed to that.

[00:01:56]>> Yeah. I kind of find it shocking that he's saying that the information came from a a memorandum. So, the gleaner actually broke the story. So, it seems like this was something that was kind of being kept hush hush under the carpet. I haven't heard from um the current prime minister Andrew as yet. I don't know.

[00:02:15]We're going to learn. We're going to listen and see if we can actually figure this thing out together. People, let's listen.

[00:02:20]>> This, of course, is totally different.

[00:02:21]These people have nothing to do with Jamaica. They don't want to be in Jamaica.

[00:02:26]um they're really presumably want to be in the US, but the US doesn't want them for whatever reason and they're not lawfully there. America wants to get rid of them. Apparently, it's convenient for America to be able to send them to a country like this one rather than send them to their home country because maybe the system in America and the rights that people have and the way the courts function it would be take it would take a longer period and if they can just send them down here and we deal with it.

[00:02:54]>> I don't know cuz we don't really know the true rationale behind this and that's one of the big problems with this thing. The whole thing is just clouded in too much secrecy. First of all, the fact >> what?

[00:03:08]Okay.

[00:03:10]Okay. MJ, honestly, you know, before I thought that the opposition and the the current PM were actually in cahoots.

[00:03:17]It's something that they both agreed upon cuz I was saying, yo, why haven't heard from the opposition? You get me?

[00:03:23]Yo, but yeah. All right, MJ.

[00:03:27]All right. that it emerged through a leak to a newspaper indicates that had that not happened, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation cuz we probably wouldn't know about it.

[00:03:37]>> Facts.

[00:03:38]>> And you know that is a bad start for a matter of national importance which everybody is very concerned about >> and then we've had all these conflicting explanations on critical things. So you know the minister of national security um has spoken to the media and spoken in parliament indicating that this was a initiative which arose from a request from the US uh and he's said that there no benefits to be derived there's no quid proquo as he put it there were no inducements positive or negative I specifically asked him that in the house of parliament he said nothing like that they're our allies They're long-standing friends of Jamaica. They wanted this.

[00:04:24]>> So, you're trying to tell me that there is no benefit to the country. It is more like it's like a kiss up type of thing.

[00:04:31]Like, all right, US is the big dog. So, we kind of kiss up to them to try to get a favor. It's like a I owe you situation. So, US probably can look at it and say, "Okay, Jamaica did me a solid." So, yeah, in case of anything, we probably return the favor.

[00:04:47]Are you crazy?

[00:04:50]people. This is madness >> um arrangement and we are facilitating them. But Gleina ran another story that they had received a copy of a diplomatic note which is a formal communication in writing from the US government to the Jamaican government in which it was said that it was a minister of Jamaica's cabinet a minister of government Senator Audrey Marx who had gone to a security conference in Florida in March and had raised with the US officials there the possibility of entering into a third country national arrangement with Jamaica and even a number was quoted in that diplomatic note. I think it said 10,000 people.

[00:05:32]>> Um so there you have a conflict between what Gleina is reporting as the contents of a diplomatic note which one would expect to be accurate.

[00:05:42]>> Um and what the minister responsible for immigration which is the minister of national security in Jamaica is saying was the origin of this transaction. So that it doesn't inspire confidence on something like this especially when under our system when you speak as a minister in parliament. Uh you're expected and required to speak the truth. You can't obiscate. You can't lie. Lying or misleading parliament is a parliamentary >> I need somebody to correct me if I'm wrong. Can that minister um regardless of the seat that they hold, can they go and and make or negotiate on behalf of the country without actually seeking counsel, without actually um getting the go-ahhead from the current PM.

[00:06:29]That sounds kind of strange to me that a person would just take the initiative to say, okay, here's a brilliant suggestion and actually bring it to outside company without actually negotiating it internally first. That sounds weird to me people. Is that is that the norm?

[00:06:46]Somebody tell me in the comment section right now cuz that sound yo a violation >> for which you can be sanctioned.

[00:06:54]>> Hold on. Can't lie. Lying or misleading parliament is a parliamentary violation >> for which you can be sanctioned. So it's a very serious matter. You know, now we're hearing from nationwide, for what that's worth, that there the US government officials had threatened to start cancelling or revoking the visas of held by Jamaicans if the Jamaican government didn't enter into this arrangement. But that is also inconsistent with what Minister Chang told the country in parliament >> that there was no negative or positive.

[00:07:32]>> No positive inducements or negative inducements, no benefits, just a request which we as a friend and ally acceeded to. So there's no clarity on this issue.

[00:07:42]They're saying they're not going to table theou in parliament which we had requested. So it doesn't look like we're going to see that document and the way in which it works and so on. you know, we're going to have to rely on what we're being told. But how can you rely on what you're being told when there's so much inconsistent information from credible sources contradicting the official narrative of the minister? So, it's a highly undesirable situation and no and people are up in arms about it.

[00:08:12]>> I recall a >> people this is even more serious than I thought because imagine the opposition leader, right? a person with you can say the highest pay grade right so they're privy to certain type of information I would think it would be at least 50/50 maybe homelessness will definitely have a lot more um say so but in my assumption I'm thinking that certain things would have to pass the opposition leaders desk first right or else what would they oppose this makes no sense to me people so you're telling me that Mark Golden is completely clueless towards this matter, right? So, if he's clueless, imagine the citizen of Jamaica.

[00:08:57]Yo, >> I don't want to say corruption or anything, but we're going to listen further.

[00:09:03]>> Proposition which was made by the UK government to the Jamaican government in I believe it was 2015 >> where they offered to build a prison in Jamaica to house deported Jamaicans who are convicted of crimes in England. And then we would also be given a certain amount of money to upkeep um the prison as well. And that deal was soundly rejected.

[00:09:27]>> It was >> um well it was controversial. I was in government at the time >> um when this was being discussed.

[00:09:34]Jamaica has two maximum security prisons. Both of them are overcrowded and both of them are are kind of >> way past their shelf life. you know, they're buildings that have been around for centuries and it's been a subject of adverse commentary in the reviews of Jamaica's human rights performance before the UN Committee on Human Rights and so on. And we know that we need to, you know, a more modern prison which is fit for purpose where people can be rehabilitated so that the high rate of recidiv recidivism is the word where meaning per prisoners who return. Mhm.

[00:10:13]>> to society and then offend again and end up in prison again. That rate in Jamaica is high. And part of the reason for that is because the prisons are really not suitable for rehabilitating persons.

[00:10:24]Efforts are made but they're not successful largely. So this idea was that this prison where which would the UK government was going to make a substantial contribution to the cost of it. What they wanted from in exchange for their spending that money here was that Jamaicans who were in prison in England and were approaching the end of their sentence for deportation >> and would be deported on the completion of their sentence on release would spend the last year or so I think it was of their sentence here in that facility and then they would >> Hey, shout out to One Claus. I can't call him a Tik Tocker cuz he's more than that. I believe he's on the radio as well. Shout out to him man. Kudos to you one clause definitely for taking this initiative and for being the one who actually this hey you probably pull some strings with your father or your uncle or whosoever Mark J is to you but you can't tell me said there's no relation bro but anyways big up to him because local media I thought local media would be all over this and so far we haven't gotten any clarity this is the first time I'm actually hearing the the entire argument being discussed >> be an assimilation program for them so that when they came out you know they could start a new life here. That became highly politicized at the time and um it was never pursued.

[00:11:43]>> Now, in light of rejecting something like that and agreeing to something like this, I have to ask, has there any has there ever been any bilateral agreements that we've had with any other country um that's ever been similar to this or is this completely unprecedented thisou that allegedly has been signed? I believe this is completely unprecedented. I don't think there's ever been anything like this before in Jamaica. And um you recall the British government um the previous one, the Conservative government under Boris Johnson and then um brief one with Richie Sunnak, you know, there was another lady in between Liz Trust, but she only lasted a few days.

[00:12:26]>> A week maximum.

[00:12:27]>> Yes. So they had wanted they have an issue with migrants coming to UK on to the UK on boats from France and claiming asylum. And the British government wanted to send those people to Rwanda >> and wanted to enter into an agreement with Rwanda who would house these people um and process their asylum claims there rather than them staying in the UK. And that matter was taken to court on behalf of those people and it went to the highest court in England which is now called the Supreme Court in England and the court ruled that that was unlawful and so it has never been pursued. So, and in the US, my understanding based on what I've read is that this the question of these third country national arrangements, >> a case was brought in federal court in Massachusetts by I think eight persons um who were >> facing the risk of this >> and the judge said it's unlawful under US law to do this and the US government is appealing that and it will go to the Supreme Court but is not it has not yet been heard. heard. So there's a big cloud of uncertainty as to the legality of this arrangement. It's unresolved on in US law. And that's another reason why I would be very concerned about this because if Jamaica facilitates, enters into an agreement and facilitates and receives persons from other countries who are sent here against their will.

[00:14:00]>> Mhm. And it turns out that under US law that is unlawful. We could have what's called accessory liability to those persons for a breach of their rights.

[00:14:11]And supposing something happens to them here, >> you know, because Mr. Chang says Minister Chang says that they're going to be free to roam all over Jamaica, >> you know. And again, it's rather odd because presumably America's getting rid of these people because they're undesirable. Yeah. And there's a video going around where the secretary of state a few months ago was saying it's the worst of the worst who are going to be sent. Although Minister Chang is saying they'll be screened and we're not taking any serious offenders and so on.

[00:14:38]But again, you know, the lack of clear information of >> and the resource, it's going to take a lot of resources just to even do that type of screening for 10,000 people. You probably have to hire new personnel just to handle that portion of it. Um, so why would Jamaica take on that responsibility just just to kind of kiss up to the US? It makes no sense to me.

[00:15:01]And then what's the legality behind it?

[00:15:04]Can a person actually go around Andrew Holes and make deals behind his back and it still be legal and we still have to uphold it? Hopefully Mark Gooling can provide some clarity around that. Maybe it was just a verbal agreement, but maybe in parliament verbal agreement is strong enough where they have to uphold.

[00:15:23]I don't know. We're going to figure this thing out.

[00:15:25]>> Transparency, the the kind of hide hide and seek approach to how this thing is being handled by the government makes it very very unclear and very concerning to us. And so from my perspective, this they have been they should not have entered into thisou at this time. And I noticed that the Trinidad and Tobago government hasn't done it. I don't think Barbados has done it either because until the legal thing is settled, you don't know what you're getting yourself into by entering into it. There's no discernable benefit to Jamaica from doing it. So, you know, my inclination would be while I accept that the US is a close ally of Jamaica, they're our major trading partner, we have a massive diaspora there. We've had good relations with America from independence and we want to maintain that. All bilateral arrangements must be must rest on principle. That's Jamaica's foreign policy has always been as a small independent country. We don't have any big army, navy and air force to protect us. We rely on international law and the normal rules that govern how states deal with each other which are based on principles.

[00:16:37]>> So for us to just accept an arrangement for which there's no discernable benefit from Jamaica, an arrangement which is currently under a legal cloud. I don't I'm not comfortable with that.

[00:16:50]Especially the way it was done where it was not disclosed by the government. It was leaked to a newspaper and we've been paying catchup ever since with conflicting information coming out on a daily basis.

[00:17:03]>> A highly undesirable >> state of affairs.

[00:17:06]>> Is theou that was allegedly signed because again it hasn't been tabled in parliament and they refuse to table it.

[00:17:13]>> Yes.

[00:17:13]>> Is this um a binding permanent agreement that is scheduled to go through or is there still deliberation? Can it still be stopped in the last minute? What is the next step that the people of Jamaica can be?

[00:17:25]>> Good question, Claus. Good question.

[00:17:27]>> The minister Chang in parliament told us on Wednesday this week, today's Friday.

[00:17:34]>> It's not a problem, is it? Today the interview.

[00:17:38]>> Yeah. Good. So, he told us on Wednesday that >> it was signed last week Thursday by him.

[00:17:45]>> Mhm.

[00:17:46]>> Um, it has no definite term. So, >> so it's indefinite. It's an indefinite arrangement.

[00:17:53]>> However, he said that either party can pull out of it >> if they so if if they wish >> and there are some mechanisms in it that would allow us to pause us being Jamaica to pause the um flow of persons here in the event that the numbers become overwhelming.

[00:18:12]>> Mhm. you know, because um based on what he said, there should be no more than 10 of these returned or these persons transferred here um who have been here for more than 30 days at any given time.

[00:18:24]So, we'll see whether that is enforced or not by the Jamaican government. The next steps, he said, are the operating protocols have to be worked out and finalized. He said that those would be disclosed um when they are done. Um, and he didn't give a time frame for how long that would take.

[00:18:43]>> Do you have any information to give to the people as to where they would be staying and who would be footing the cost of them staying there?

[00:18:52]>> Well, he has said that they're free to go wherever they want.

[00:18:56]>> Where?

[00:18:57]>> I >> free to go where?

[00:19:00]These people don't have families in Jamaica. Yo, so you're telling me that they're free to roam? And I'm I can tell you a thousand% people, anything happens to any one of those people who are sent down. I don't understand why Jamaica would actually take this type of responsibility for free. There is no benefits that anybody can think of. I'm here talking and I can't think of a single benefit more than to just say, "Oh, I'm an idiot. Dump them here." This makes no sense to me.

[00:19:28]>> Assume that when they arrive here, some accommodation will be provided for them.

[00:19:33]He did say that the US government would be providing resources to the OOM um the which is a UN body that deals with migration and migrants and that that money would be to defay the costs associated with this for a limited period of time. So if somebody comes here the intention is that they will then leave and go back to their home.

[00:19:59]>> Mhm. And what Minister Chang said was that based on the um experience of these arrangements over the last few months elsewhere, the rate of persons who do leave is quite high. However, it's quite possible that some will say no, we don't want to leave or we can't leave. And at that point, they're not America's problem. They they become Jamaica's problem. And we then have to deal with that through some legal mechanism whether it be deportation or if they claim asylum we will have to process them in accordance to the laws that relate to refugees and so on. So we are taking on some risks in doing this.

[00:20:38]There are risks that the persons though we say we're going to screen them for criminal records. There are many people who are criminals who don't have a criminal record.

[00:20:46]>> Right? You might say the most effective criminals don't have a criminal record.

[00:20:51]True. So you could be receiving people who are dangerous or who are involved in serious um illegal activities and you don't know >> and then they're going to come to Jamaica and set up shop. Start inviting all their cronies over to Jamaica say hey Jamaica is ripe new territory. Yo chaos on the Jamaican soil. Um and so and then there's also the possibility of as I said earlier accessory liability meaning Jamaica facilitating an arrangement which is in violation of those people's rights under US law. We don't know what the US law actually will be held to be by its final court. But we do know that it's being contested now.

[00:21:35]So we're taking on a serious risk by entering into into this um at this time.

[00:21:41]Now, >> yeah, >> we don't have a public sex offender registry.

[00:21:45]>> When I see that people are going to be coming into Jamaica who have been deemed undesirable by the United States, I really wonder what kind of people are we accepting into our country. How are we going to be able to protect our most vulnerable people against the worst potentialities?

[00:22:05]>> That's right. What's being done to assure the people of Jamaica that we're not going to be accepting just anybody?

[00:22:14]>> Yeah, good question. Um, well, we do have >> There's no way to tell. The only way to properly screen these people is to actually pull inside of a database. It's going to have to be like they're going to ask the US to send whatever records they have. And chances are these people are actually probably have records in their home country outside of the US. So you you literally will have to check multiple countries just to get a full scope of these people's background.

[00:22:42]Madness >> have a sex offenders registry, but it's not universally accessible. in order to access what's in it, >> you have to have an in what would be regarded as a recognized interest in that information that it's somebody who's seeking a job with you or seeking to be a member of an organization that you're involved in, something of that nature. So, and I'm not sure and my suspicion is that it would not apply to persons who are not convicted of a sexual offense here. And indeed some of these people may have been charged in America and then deported before >> before conviction >> for conviction and they might not have a criminal record in America either. So this is another potential risk and of course as I've said the government is relying entirely as I understand it on the screening process that they say will be undertaken to to ensure that these people speak English that they are not children that they're not Jamaicans and that they're not so um they have no criminal record for any serious criminal offense. That's what the only safeguard is the screening process. Now, this comes on the back of Jamaica and Cuba absolving their decadesl long arrangement and agreement to have um Cuba send medical practitioners and to also educate Jamaicans um in Cuba to become medical practitioners. I I really wonder why we have rejected our brothers in Cuba and the the Haitians who come to seek asylum in Jamaica. But we are proposing allegedly we're proposing to our >> yo this guy clause is full of yo you need to become you need to sign up to become a a part of the parliament bro in my opinion wasted talent right now you need to be you can tell that the younger generation based on his questions these are the type of people that we need in parliament yo one clause big up yourself yo definitely >> accept undesirable people by America's standards >> I really think and I wonder what's going on in terms of that and why that was the case in the first place and now we we found the ability to accommodate other people. Yeah.

[00:24:58]>> The inconsistencies that you've highlighted are >> bro these are questions that Andrew Holness should actually be fielding not the opposition leader. So right now it's like Mark Golden is in the hot seat getting these type of question that Andrew Holness is supposed to be answering. So yo, sometimes I won't even get caught up in the whole political aspect of everything because I don't know exactly who is the best person for the job, but I can definitely see the effort of Mark Golden. Definitely people can't go around it 100%.

[00:25:28]>> Very difficult to grasp. Um, in the case of the arrangement with the Cuban government, this goes back, this has been going on for decades, >> over 50 years.

[00:25:37]>> Yes. And it's funny because my father was on a team of doctors that was sent by the Jamaican government to Cuba at the very outset to review the standards of their medical system >> to see whether they it was appropriate that they that an arrangement like this should be um entered into. and they came back and they gave a report and of course the standards are impressive and that is when we started this program and the Cuban government has um you know been providing doctors and other medical um service technicians and what have you to Jamaica for many for decades ever since. And the reality is that these doctors often go into areas of Jamaica which are underserved communities. You know, it's not every Jamaican doctor wants to go to a deep rural area and um to go and run a clinic. The Cubans are willing to go wherever they're needed.

[00:26:40]So for the termination of that arrangement was a a very unfortunate situation especially since the government had not put in place any alternative to replace these persons.

[00:26:52]They're now scrambling around.

[00:26:53]>> I see they signed a deal with Ghana.

[00:26:55]>> They've signed, but when how many will come and when will they come, we don't know. But this is all as a result of the gap that's been created by these Cuban doctors no longer being available here.

[00:27:09]You mentioned the Haitians, you know, now I mean it's it's Haiti was the first independent black republic, >> the first country to ever have a successful slave revolution that ended in their self-determination.

[00:27:25]>> Correct. And they were the subject of a a scandalous transaction where France required them to pay reparations to France for their enslavement.

[00:27:42]>> Yes. For for as a condition of being recognized as a state internationally and the government of Haiti at the time felt it necessary to to take on that debt. So important was it that they be recognized as a state and they were paying that money back for over a hundred years.

[00:28:02]>> Damn. and it has contributed heavily to the underdevelopment of Haiti and the poverty and problems that they have now when their people come here. You know, some have been able to mount asylum claims, which again, Minister Chang in the House said those are being processed, but we know that the major the vast majority of them are turned around and taken back by the Coast Guard of Jamaica to Haiti in a short a period of time as possible. So, you know, when you compare how we treat them and how we've treated the Cubans with how we're responding to this request, if it's if it was indeed a request or whether we initiated this request, >> um government is denying that now, but the diplomatic >> still unclear.

[00:28:52]>> Still unclear. You know, it it it doesn't sit well, I think, with many Jamaicans. you know, >> definitely people. Yo, it's definitely in my opinion a kiss up to the big boys.

[00:29:04]100%. There's no other way to look at it people. So, this interview is a lengthy one. I won't play it all. What I'll do is try to link um yeah, I'll add a link to my description to the full video. You guys can check that out on your own time. But yeah, honestly, people, what's what's your thoughts? Right now, I'm still I'm still confused as hell right now. Believe me, I'm still confused. I still I need to hear from Andrew Onus himself. To this date, I haven't heard anything from Andrew on about the matter. Maybe someone in the comment section can tell me if he actually made any kind of statement, but I need to hear from Andrew about this people. But definitely people drop it in the comment section and tell me your thoughts. Do you think it's a good idea? Do you see any benefits in this? I don't know people. This is pure confusion and madness and even borderline corruption if you ask me. So people, once again, thank you for watching. My name is Viz.

[00:29:58]I'm out.